Advanced grammar "would rather + subject + than + WHAT VERB"

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Dashkinru
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#1

Сообщение Dashkinru »

Hello! Help me to choose between the verb forms. Can't find the answers in any textbook. And three natives gave three different answers. Two of them confessing that they are not sure.
1. I'd rather you went out now than see / saw this.
2. I'd rather you had gone out yesterday than see / seen this.
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VictorB
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#2

Сообщение VictorB »

1. I'd rather you went out now than see / saw this.
2. I'd rather you had gone out yesterday than see / seen this.
My take on it is that they could be put this way:
1. I'd rather you went out now and not see (all) this.
2. I'd rather you had gone out yesterday and not had seen (all) that.
I may be mistaken though:(
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Dashkinru
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Chaika
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#3

Сообщение Chaika »

see and seen
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Dashkinru
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Yety
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#4

Сообщение Yety »

Chaika пишет: 29 окт 2021, 18:14see and
saw, perhaps? No?
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Dashkinru
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#5

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

Dashkinru, technically, it should be saw and seen (parallelism). However, you'll hear see in such sentences all the time. So, these days it's a matter of personal preference, it seems. That's probably why you can't get a definitive answer.
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#6

Сообщение VictorB »

So it should be
1. I'd rather you went out now than saw this.
2. I'd rather you had gone out yesterday than seen this.
Chaika, Easy-Breezy English,
Once the local Anglophones say that there's nothing wrong with the conjunction "than" in these sentences, I'm willingly taking it for granted:-)
At the same time, if I were to translate them into Russian, I wouldn't say, "Я бы предпочел, чтобы ты (вчера) ушла чем увидела это".
I'd say, "Я бы предпочел, чтобы ты вчера ушла и не видела этого".
And that was why I thought it possible to express the same idea this way:

1. I'd rather you went out now and [I'd rather you] not see this.
2. I'd rather you had gone out yesterday and [I'd rather you not] had seen that (this?).


So, is there anything wrong with my versions? If yes, is it wrong parallelism or what else?
Am I very much mistaken about possible (contextual) interchangeability of "I'd rather you didn't do" and "I'd rather you not do"?

"I'd rather be a sparrow/hammer than a snail/nail" ("лучше мне бы быть... чем...") sounds fine to me, though, both in the original and in its translation into Russian:-)
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#7

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

VictorB, the question wasn't how to phrase these sentences better, but which verb forms to use. :-) They are not the most eloquent, but certainly not impossible. Than is not too common in such constructions because the alternative is usually obvious or implied.
VictorB пишет: 29 окт 2021, 22:41 So, is there anything wrong with my versions? If yes, is it wrong parallelism or what else?
I wouldn't use I'd rather for something in the past at all. I think I wish works better in such sentences.
I'm also not particularly fond of mixing the past and present subjunctive (went-not see), but like I said, people do it all the time.
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#8

Сообщение VictorB »

Easy-Breezy English пишет: 29 окт 2021, 23:21 I wouldn't use I'd rather for something in the past at all. I think I wish works better in such sentences.
+1
Thanks ever so much, Easy-Breezy English, you've been a great help:-)
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#9

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

VictorB пишет: 29 окт 2021, 23:35 Thanks ever so much, Easy-Breezy English, you've been a great help:-)
Oh, I don't know how helpful this really was since it's just a stylistic preference of mine. :-)
VictorB пишет: 29 окт 2021, 22:41 Am I very much mistaken about possible (contextual) interchangeability of "I'd rather you didn't do" and "I'd rather you not do"?
This is an example of language in flux. While the present subjunctive would most likely be voted down by British English speakers in this case, it's very much alive and well in the US.
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#10

Сообщение VictorB »

Easy-Breezy English пишет: 29 окт 2021, 23:49 how helpful this really was
To me, it was. A word to the wise, kind of...
Thanks again :)
Dashkinru
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#11

Сообщение Dashkinru »

I'm immensely grateful to everybody for this discussion!!! Thanks!
I've made the conclusion for myself between the difference of formal and informal styles.
And yes, I totally agree that it's not the best phrasing of the idea, but there's a need to get the rule across to my students because they can run into this grammar at tricky olympiads or exams.
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#12

Сообщение VictorB »

Dashkinru пишет: 30 окт 2021, 12:32 to get the rule across to my students
As for me, I've taken note of the following:
First, since the first sentence conveys the idea of the speakers wish for someone to do something, whereas the second - his/her regret of someone's experience of having done that something, with the latter, "I wish you hadn't..." would work better.
Second,
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 29 окт 2021, 23:21 Than is not too common in such constructions because the alternative is usually obvious or implied.
Third, provided that "I'd rather you..." is not the only way to express our preferences for the actions of another person, the alternatives for putting it (in the past as well) more eloquently - tastes differ, though - can be found, for example, using the construction"I'd prefer you...rather than/I'd prefer it if you..." IMHO:)
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/gramma ... uld+Prefer
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#13

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

Dashkinru пишет: 30 окт 2021, 12:32 there's a need to get the rule across to my students because they can run into this grammar at tricky olympiads or exams.
Oh, well that's a game changer. Yeah, definitely have them stick to the official rules then. Not that it's always a guarantee of success as far as Russian exams go, but still, it's your best bet.

And asking native speakers can be a notoriously frustrating experience, too. You want them to behave by the book, and they refuse to do so. :-) My husband, who's not only a native speaker but also a published author repeatedly complemented on his style, insists on using the past form of verbs in the present perfect. Like, I've ran. There's no convincing him otherwise, and when I try, he plays his native speaker card. Little I can say to that. :-)
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Chaika
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#14

Сообщение Chaika »

The way I see it: had gone... had seen
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Yety
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#15

Сообщение Yety »

Chaika пишет: 31 окт 2021, 22:03 The way I see it: had gone... had seen
Then it should be ..
went... saw
=))
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#16

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

boring пишет: 03 ноя 2021, 15:22 Maybe you meant "definite"?
No, I wrote what I meant.
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