The use of the verb "to will" in the meaning of "to wish"

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#1

Сообщение VictorB »

Here's a couplet from the verse The Owl and the Pussy-Cat by Edward Lee:
"Dear Pig, are you willing to sell for one shilling
Your ring?" Said the Piggy, "I will."
I've got three questions related to the use of the verb "will" in the meaning of "to wish":
1. Why did the pig, being asked, "Are you willing...?" answered, "I will", not "I am"? (Provided we were to abstract from the rhyming "оn the hill" in the following couplet)
2. Is the verb "to will" in the meaning of "to wish" way too outdated nowadays?
3. If it is not, does it require the to-infinitive to follow?

The last question comes from the comment of maestro of the English language Colin Fine which I chanced upon on the ELL Stack Exchange site:
If, for example, I visited the lake often over a period of a few weeks, I might will say they "were living" there (implicitly, over the period when I was visiting).
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#2

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

VictorB пишет: 04 окт 2021, 22:44 comment of maestro of the English language Colin Fine
It's most likely a typo unless he's stacking modals, which I doubt he is.
But then you never know with those maestros. :-) He might've woken up overpowered with a streak of silliness that day. Happens to me all the time. :-)
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#3

Сообщение Michelangelo »

VictorB, когда я только начал учить английский мне то ли сказали, то ли я прочитал где-то, что will - это изначально означало "хотеть, желать". Поэтому я его даже как модальное для будущего времени именно так и воспринимаю.
Old English wyllan, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch willen, German wollen, from an Indo-European root shared by Latin velle ‘will, wish’.
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#4

Сообщение Michelangelo »

VictorB пишет: 04 окт 2021, 22:44 I might will say
I might wish say ???
Т.е. он употребил его не как модальный, а как смысловой.
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#5

Сообщение Yety »

VictorB пишет: 04 окт 2021, 22:44 1. Why did the pig, being asked, "Are you willing...?" answered, "I will", not "I am"? (Provided we were to abstract from the rhyming "оn the hill" in the following couplet)
You can hardly abstract from that in a piece of poetry.
VictorB пишет: 04 окт 2021, 22:44 2. Is the verb "to will" in the meaning of "to wish" way too outdated nowadays?
Maybe just a little - not 'too', and surely not 'way'..=)
It's not so dated as just specific.
You might want to consult a good dictionary..=))
VictorB пишет: 04 окт 2021, 22:44 3. If it is not, does it require the to-infinitive to follow?
It's a regular modal, both in meaning and form, and it works with 'to' only with an object in its causative meaning.
VictorB пишет: 04 окт 2021, 22:44 question comes from
There's an answer from another maestro about multiple modals:
may/might will have to.
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 05 окт 2021, 08:23 Happens to me all the time. :-)
🤪
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#6

Сообщение VictorB »

Thank you, Easy-Breezy English, thank you very much!
The article your link leads to has been an eye-opener to me:)
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 05 окт 2021, 08:23 It's most likely a typo
I've read dozens of his posts and hundreds of his comments and I doubt it was the typo that he didn't bother to mend or could have missed)
Not now that I've read that article.
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#7

Сообщение VictorB »

Michelangelo пишет: 05 окт 2021, 08:40 когда я только начал учить английский мне то ли сказали, то ли я прочитал где-то
LOL!
Michelangelo, Большинство таких старых самоучек, как мы с Вами, начинали с Бонка или Шах-Назаровой (некоторые с Петрова и мало кто с переведенного Экерсли). Только я что-то не припомню, где у них было про то, что stacking the modals - thanks to Easy-Breezy English I know it now - is not something unimaginable in English. If you had already known that, I'm taking my hat off to you :-)
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#8

Сообщение VictorB »

Yety пишет: 05 окт 2021, 10:47 You can hardly abstract from that in a piece of poetry.
"I am" rhymes with " "dam") Then, it might read:

"Dear Pig, are you willing to sell for one shilling
Your ring?" Said the Piggy, "I am."
So they took it away, and were married next day
By the Turkey who lives by the dam.

It would make sense since at the beginning:
The Owl and the Pussy-cat went to sea
In a beautiful pea-green boat,
They took some honey, and plenty of money,
Wrapped up in a five-pound note.
As for the English language "maestri", I've already had it carved in bronze:
That something is not impossible to be used in writing doesn't mean one should use it.
:-)
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#9

Сообщение Chaika »

I have never heard the phrase, and first read it as an error, a typo, for the correct "I might say". Maybe it's a Britishism?

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#10

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

Chaika пишет: 05 окт 2021, 15:18 a typo, for the correct "I might say"
Ditto. I doubt it was intentional. Just a slip of the keyboard.
Chaika пишет: 05 окт 2021, 15:18 Maybe it's a Britishism?
A Southernism or Redneckism. :-) See the link above.
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#11

Сообщение VictorB »

Chaika пишет: 05 окт 2021, 15:18 Maybe it's a Britishism?
Colin Fine is from Yorkshire, UK
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#12

Сообщение VictorB »

Easy-Breezy English пишет: 05 окт 2021, 15:21 Ditto. I doubt it was intentional. Just a slip of the keyboard.
Easy-Breezy English,
I just couldn't help asking the renowned commenter bluntly, what it had actually been.
You know how stick-to-it-ive I might sometimes be :-)
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#13

Сообщение VictorB »

VictorB пишет: 05 окт 2021, 16:39 what it had actually been.
"It was a typo for I might well say", was the answer)
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#14

Сообщение Chaika »

Easy-Breezy English, Hey! I live in the redneck South! I'm a Northerner but have lived in the South for 34 years. I even use Southern phrases like "y'all" and "couple-three" and once put the accent on the Southern place in the word "insurance".

https://www.politico.com/2020-election/ ... carolina/
Map of North Carolina counties showing 2020 voting results. Red is republican voting victory and blue is democratic.
Oddly enough (not really!), except for the ten counties in the northeast, the blue areas are also the location of universities -- NC public universities and one private one. The four largest cities are marked with O. I have no idea why those northern counties went democratic.
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#15

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

VictorB пишет: 05 окт 2021, 16:39 You know how stick-to-it-ive I might sometimes be
Who was it that said that the search for truth is the noblest expression of the human spirit? Or something to that effect. So, no worries, you are just being noble. :-)
Chaika пишет: 05 окт 2021, 16:39 Native American
Like native native, real native?
Chaika пишет: 05 окт 2021, 17:32 I even use Southern phrases
Totally the sexiest accent ever. I don't care how they vote, but I love everything South. They can even stack their modals, all the better. Went to high school in Baton Rouge - good times!
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#16

Сообщение Chaika »

Easy-Breezy English,
Lac Courte Oreilles Ojibwe. I didn't find out about my Indianness until I was 45 years old because my grandmother kept her secret all her life - didn't even tell her 3 children - and we only found out after she had passed.

From my wife's website: https://earthsanctuaries.net/visiting-o ... ancestors/

My FB page of our pix at the LCO powwow 2018: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 112&type=3
I think you might be able to see pix from more Honor the Earth powwows on my FB photo albums page.

Let me know if there are problems with the links.
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#17

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

Chaika пишет: 05 окт 2021, 19:37 Lac Courte Oreilles Ojibwe.
Great story and great pictures, David. Thanks for sharing!

My husband is half Blackfoot. His great-grandfather's family fled their reservation in Kansas in the early 20th century, relocated to California and destroyed all their paperwork in an attempt to conceal their Indian identity. Sad, really. My father-in-law looked as Indian as they get, so I'm not sure how he explained the fact to others. Theoretically, my husband would've been eligible for a college tuition waiver, but couldn't apply because there was no proof of his Indian heritage.
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#18

Сообщение Yety »

Yety пишет: 05 окт 2021, 10:47 in its causative meaning
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/04/handwritten-manuscript-of-the-grapes-of-wrath-to-be-published-for-the-first-time-john-steinbeck пишет:The manuscript also reveals, Shillinglaw added, how much Carol was involved in the project. “Steinbeck wrote books in his mind before committing to paper, and he knew the shape of the book (the closing scene, for example) at the beginning. But to see how much editing work his wife Carol had before her is daunting,” she said. “She typed the manuscript, the daily pages each evening, and she not only had to decipher his writing but also indicate paragraph breaks, clarify spelling when the Joads were speaking – the dialect not always easy to transcribe … Of course all the writing is Steinbeck’s. But Carol ‘willed’ the book into being, as the dedication notes.”
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#19

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

Yety пишет: 05 окт 2021, 10:47 It's a regular modal, both in meaning and form, and it works with 'to' only with an object in its causative meaning.
Yety пишет: 05 окт 2021, 10:47 But Carol ‘willed’ the book into being, as the dedication notes.”
Okay, not my turf, but these two meanings seem to have slightly different origins, no? Wyllan and willian? Related, of course, but still different.
I'm just having a hard time equating them.
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#20

Сообщение Yety »

Easy-Breezy English пишет: 06 окт 2021, 01:00 these two meanings seem to have slightly different origins, no?
Yes, it seems so.
PIE root *wel- (2) -> OE *willan, wyllan -> will (v.1) -> will (n.) -> will (v.2)
So the ultimate origin is said to be the one.
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 06 окт 2021, 01:00 I'm just having a hard time equating them.
They were not meant to be equated, just like the Russian cognates "волити" и "велети" (guess so).
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#21

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

Yety пишет: 05 окт 2021, 13:56 like the Russian cognates "волити" и "велети"
And валяйте. :-)
So then I wouldn't lump them together and call "will to" a modal with a causative meaning. It's confusing.
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#22

Сообщение Yety »

Easy-Breezy English пишет: 06 окт 2021, 01:35 And валяйте. :-)
Вал валит волной, револьвер,..
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#23

Сообщение Yety »

VictorB пишет: 04 окт 2021, 22:44 3. If it is not, does it require the to-infinitive to follow?
Yety пишет: 05 окт 2021, 10:47 It's a regular modal, both in meaning and form, and it works with 'to' only
That felt somewhat off, and now that I've googled for it it seems plain wrong.
may will to, might will to.
Divine Power and Evil: A Reply to Process Theodicy
Kenneth K. Pak · 2016
1. If God knows that I shall will to do A, then I shall necessarily will to do A.
2. If I shall necessarily will to do A, then I could not do otherwise than to ...
Yety пишет: 05 окт 2021, 10:47 You might want to consult a good dictionary..=))
There's not a single example illustrating that usage in all the dictionaries I've checked with, alas...

There are no valid examples of 'may will do' in texts, of course..
The Origins of Grammar: An Anthropological Perspective - Page 130
Martin Edwardes · 2010
For instance, I may have done and I may do are permissible English forms, but *I may had done and *I may will do are not. With adverbials the range of ...
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#24

Сообщение VictorB »

Yety пишет: 06 окт 2021, 20:29 There's not a single example illustrating that usage in all the dictionaries I've checked with, alas...
Yety, my friend, with my stick-to-it-ive-ness, compared with yours, I'm not half fit to shine your boots :-)
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#25

Сообщение Yety »

Yety пишет: 06 окт 2021, 20:29 Divine Power and Evil: A Reply to Process Theodicy
Kenneth K. Pak · 2016
1. If God knows that I shall will to do A, then I shall necessarily will to do A.
2. If I shall necessarily will to do A, then I could not do otherwise than to ...
И даже will will..)
Classics of Western Philosophy
Steven M. Cahn — 2012 · Philosophy
For just as God will do what he wills through himself, so they will be able to do what they will through God; for just as they will will only what God wills, so he will will whatever they will - and what he wills cannot fail to be.
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