"be gone to" vs. "have gone to"

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VictorB
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#1

Сообщение VictorB »

"He's gone to the market" without the contraction,
when should it be written no other way than (1) "He is gone* to the market" and when (2) "He has gone to the market"?

So far, my only take on it is that the first one always means that the one who went to the market is supposed to be still there (or elsewhere, or on their way back home) at the moment of speaking, whereas the second may both mean and not mean that (i.e. they may already be back, which the fresh food in the fridge shows).
If it's something like the "ушел-пошел" difference, then it is absolutely ungraspable for an ESL learner, at least to me. The "ушел (но еще не пришел) - сходил (и вернулся)" analogy is perfectly graspable, but my gut tells me that there's some more to it--as far as the subtleties go.
Could anyone kindly shed some (more) light on it for me?
*That "gone" is an adjective" here (as in "Gone Girl"/"Gone with the Wind", I do guess.

P.S. I know that enough is as good as a feast, but there's also the "be finished with smth. vs. have finished smth."
and the AE "be done with smth." issue that, too, is slightly gnawing me at the moment.
I mean: What does the use of the one, but not the other depend on (unless they can be used interchangeably)?
So, if someone were so kind as to help me make heads or tails of those too, I'd be more than happy :-)
GlebNoNePyanykh
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#2

Сообщение GlebNoNePyanykh »

VictorB пишет: 13 сен 2021, 18:51 (1) "He is gone* to the market" and when (2) "He has gone to the market"?
There's no difference. The same with "come".
VictorB пишет: 13 сен 2021, 18:51 they may already be back
He has been to the market.
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#3

Сообщение VictorB »

GlebNoNePyanykh пишет: 13 сен 2021, 19:01 There's no difference.
What about "He is still gone" and "He has still gone"? Are they interchangeable too? I doubt it...
GlebNoNePyanykh
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#4

Сообщение GlebNoNePyanykh »

VictorB пишет: 13 сен 2021, 19:12 What about "He is still gone" and "He has still gone"?
https://books.google.ru/books?id=aOvU6m ... 22&f=false
Dragon27
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#5

Сообщение Dragon27 »

There's really not much point mentioning the direction/destination (to the market) if you just want to emphasize that the person isn't here: He is gone. If the destination is mentioned, then normally it should be considered a contraction of "has".
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Yety
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#6

Сообщение Yety »

VictorB пишет: 13 сен 2021, 18:51 The "ушел (но еще не пришел) - сходил (и вернулся)" analogy is perfectly graspable, but
No buts there, I'm afraid.=))
VictorB пишет: 13 сен 2021, 18:51 *That "gone" is an adjective" here
is debatable, but who cares.=)
An Easter Grammar Lesson: He is Risen (Грамматика)

Unlike 'is gone', which is just as popular as 'has gone', 'is come' is obsolete.
https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2012/01/is-come.html
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VictorB
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#7

Сообщение VictorB »

Yety пишет: 13 сен 2021, 19:30No buts there
Once in a while, you have to be shown the futility of looking for something where there's nothing at all to be found. At the same time, how else if not by opening the door can you tell that the room you're entering in search of that something is not only completely dark but also entirely empty. Thanks for turning on the light for me, and for the links :-)
(By the way, just to stay consistent, I tried a couple of other doors--I hate my being that boneheaded, sometimes--predictably, to no avail.)
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Chaika
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#8

Сообщение Chaika »

The construction BE + verb of motion is archaic, more or less. Nowadays stick with HAVE. Compare with modern German: Er ist gegangen, ist gekommen. Plus see post #6 above by Yety.
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