Took me a while to figure out

Discuss any questions in English. Practise your writing skills.

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acapnotic
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#51

Сообщение acapnotic »

asil пишет: 04 ноя 2020, 06:28 And yes, there's nothing wrong with changing the names to Sogh Jmih: people are allowed to be creative with their names
But the author wasn't being creative with his name. This is a different situation.
asil пишет: 04 ноя 2020, 06:28 This is not a factual book so there's nothing to 'believe' in it.
It's partly factual because Russians do exist in the real world. If that man had been from some imaginary country, then his name could have been anything. But as long as he is Russian, he is naturally expected to have a Russian name. But the name Maxey isn't Russian. The reader is deceived by the author.
asil пишет: 04 ноя 2020, 06:28 By using an 'un' Russian Russian name, the author probably re-instates the fictionality of his work.
A joke is a joke only if the audience understands it as such. In this case it's not so. Americans know nothing about Russian names. So they'll just think that Maxey is a Russian name. To them, there isn't any fictionality about it.
asil пишет: 04 ноя 2020, 06:28 BTW, you don't find the name Tolstoy offensive in Russian, do you? :) I wonder why ... :)
Why should I? It's a correct Russian name. Just like Pyeshkov. But Maxey Aleksevieh isn't. It's just a piece of nonsense.
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#52

Сообщение asil »

acapnotic,
As I said before, I don't find this offensive. On the contrary, I find this rather amusing and totally appropriate.

But right now you're insulting all Americans by saying they know nothing about Russian names, don't you think it's stereotyping?

So the author played a bit with just one name and you find this offensive but making a sweeping statement about all Americans is not? How come?

Anyway, that's it. I'm not here to argue or to prove a point.

I love the reference, and though I'm not into this sort of literature, I might make an exception and even read it!
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#53

Сообщение acapnotic »

asil пишет: 04 ноя 2020, 07:52 As I said before, I don't find this offensive. On the contrary, I find this rather amusing and totally appropriate.
So what? Does that mean I should keep my thoughts to myself? Or what do you mean by repeating what you have already said? Aren't you actually insulting me by implying that I don't remember what I was told a few minutes ago? :)
asil пишет: 04 ноя 2020, 07:52 So the author played a bit with just one name and you find this offensive
I find the result of his playing ugly and think that he should have looked up some real Russian names and make one for his character from them. He just didn't do this part of his job well.
asil пишет: 04 ноя 2020, 07:52 But right now you're insulting all Americans by saying they know nothing about Russian names
That's my opinion. It's based partly on the fact that even a writer wasn't able to make up a correct Russian name and didn't bother to look for one.
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#54

Сообщение Michelangelo »

But right now you're insulting all Americans by saying they know nothing about Russian names
But only those Americans who came from Russia recently could know Russian names written in Cyrillic. Who else of Americans could know them? Of course most of them don't even know where Russia on the globe is.
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#55

Сообщение Kind_Punk »

acapnotic пишет: 04 ноя 2020, 07:35 Maxey Aleksevieh
Maybe this is how drunk Pyeshkov pronounces his name )
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#56

Сообщение acapnotic »

Kind_Punk пишет: 06 ноя 2020, 09:19 Maybe this is how drunk Pyeshkov pronounces his name )
Oh, that's a clever guess. :)

Btw, I think the 'vieh' may be a misrecognized 'vich'. In that case the patronymic is Aleksevich, which is closer to normality.
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#57

Сообщение Kind_Punk »

Also, they do not care about such things ) Here is the canonical example:
СпойлерПоказать
Изображение
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#58

Сообщение acapnotic »

Yes, I also thought of him. :)
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#59

Сообщение Kind_Punk »

I think Russian names are very alien to USA people and sounds like umnqunduwakho to us — a couple of letters no one knows how to say. And for the native speakers the word is awful )

And so we’re just chatting and talking shit, and Wanga was teaching us how to speak Xhosa. The worst word you can say in that language is umnqunduwakho [pronounced moon-dwako]. I don’t know how it’s spelled. It’s on our Facebook page. I’m gonna tattoo it on myself so I don’t forget. If you say that, it’s like the worst swear word—the unsaid word. It means, like, your bum hole, and it’s a heavy insult. You know in Lord of the Rings, when you say “Mordor,” people get freaked out and say you shouldn’t say that word. Well the Xhosas are freaked out about umnqunduwakho. So we’re joking around, and I’m like, “You should rap about this shit.”
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#60

Сообщение acapnotic »

Yet some of them seem to like such names. Take Larry Niven for example. In his Ringworld books there are lots of names like Laliskareerlyar, Arrivercompanth and Halrloprillalar. He definitely didn't think of those who would record audio books from them in the future. :)

But Google can do it easily. Enjoy: https://translate.google.ru/?hl=ru&sl=e ... =translate.
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#61

Сообщение Kind_Punk »

acapnotic пишет: 06 ноя 2020, 11:45 Laliskareerlyar, Arrivercompanth and Halrloprillalar.
I have dislocated my tongue )
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#62

Сообщение Dragon27 »

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#63

Сообщение acapnotic »

Well, it seems so strange. I've googled some explanations on a forum but still can't quite understand how it works (see the phrase in bold).

“At any rate,” Frobisher continued, “we are working on that latter supposition here. This copper structure is a parabolic mirror. Thought waves originating at its focus are concentrated into a beam which is directed upward into the sky toward any stellar planetary systems which may happen to lie above.”
“Amazing,” da Silva grunted. “Explains everything.”
“What do you mean?” Frobisher asked sharply.
“Just humble before wonders of science,” da Silva told him.
Frobisher nodded. “You’re right,” he said. “Who knows but what the message now being beamed, with its appeal for help from a war-threatened and deluded humanity, may some day or century be received by a truly mature and benign race, which will swiftly come to our aid?”
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#64

Сообщение Dragon27 »

After googling and looking the words 'but' and 'what' up in the dictionary and doing some thinking and guessing I came to the conclusion that it essentialy means this (omitting the unnecessary parts of the sentence): Who knows that the message may not be received (some day)? (or 'if the message won't be received')
Compare with a similar sentence (from Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary):
Idioms:
1. but what, Informal. but that: Who knows but what the sun may still shine.
And here's a whole bunch of them in one passage:
Nobody knows to the contrary. I cannot tell but what God may bless you to this entire nation. Nobody will dare to say that he cannot. I cannot tell but what God may bless you, my friend, to that part of London in which you live, even though you may be deeply conscious of its great needs, and of your own insufficiency. Who can tell what the Lord can or will do? Dear mother, who knows but what the Lord Jesus may bless you to all the members of your family, so that by your moans all the little ones shall come to him? Nobody has any right to speak to the contrary. Who knows but what God may bless you, dear teacher, to all your Sunday-school class, so that you may meet them all in heaven? Nobody can declare that it shall not be so, therefore strive after it.
https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-libra ... #flipbook/

The word 'but' itself is sometimes used to mean "that... not", as in:
There never is a tax law presented but someone will oppose it.
No leaders ever existed but they were optimists.
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#65

Сообщение Beginner »

I guess, it's most often translated as "но то, что", "но что", "но чем", "но чего". But who knows how it works... .
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#66

Сообщение Dragon27 »

Another example to try and absorb the construction:
Mark R. Sullivan, San Francisco, president, and director of the Pacific Telephone & Telegraph Co., said in an address Thursday night:

“Just what form the future telephone will take is, of course, pure speculation. Here is my prophecy:

“In its final development, the telephone will be carried about by the individual, perhaps as we carry a watch today. It probably will require no dial or equivalent, and I think the users will be able to see each other if they want, as they talk.

‘Who knows but what it may actually translate from one language to another?”
https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/hist ... rican-1953

edit:
Here's the photo of the actual article:

from the commentaries
I don't know how to parse the last sentence. Looks like it's an archaic turn of phrase.
"who knows but what it may" is indeed a turn of phrase
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#67

Сообщение Dragon27 »

One can google up further examples with different queries.
Say, "who knows but what this":
Who knows but what this was included in their nefarious scheme.
Who knows but what this may be a stepping-stone into a successful career?
Who knows but what this could even be the beginning of a movement that will turn the tide of school shootings and violence in the hallways.
Who knows but what this bread or that wine might end up on the Communion table as the body and blood of Christ.
Who knows but what this photoplay may serve to discourage silly and boisterous efforts and encourage this same restrained type of comedy?
etc.

Who knows but what this turn of phrase might become popular again in the future?
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#68

Сообщение acapnotic »

Dragon27 пишет: 09 ноя 2020, 19:16
There never is a tax law presented but someone will oppose it.
No leaders ever existed but they were optimists.
I can see the logic behind these ones. As for the original phrase, it's definitely going to take more brain twisting. :) Thanks for the help!
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#69

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic пишет: 09 ноя 2020, 17:41 Who knows but what the message now being beamed
If you cannot find any logic in the structure of the sentence itself, and we know not for sure the meaning of this phrase, then we have to look into the context. If the context won't explain anything, we have to approach a native speaker or a knowledgable connoisseur of English.

However, let's first look into the context more carefully now, shall we?

Now I have thought, that why we should look for a hidden meaning of that phrase - maybe we have to take it directly like

"but what the message"

could mean "some developed race could receive this message differently - they won't be able to understand the exact meaning of it, but take it in a distorted form. Maybe it has a direct meaning not an idiomatic one?
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#70

Сообщение Dragon27 »

No, I think you're overthinking it, the direct idiomatic meaning is the way to go. Look at all these examples I've googled up. Just extrapolate the meaning from them (which should already be obvious enough) to your phrase, and you're set.
The substituion of "that" for "what" (as per the dictionary above) makes it a tad more comprehensible (imho):
Who knows but that the message now being beamed may some day or century be received by a truly mature and benign race?
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#71

Сообщение acapnotic »

Yes, 'that' instead of 'what' helps a little, giving some hints, but it still looks weird. As if it had been invented by aliens from outer space. Those ancient guys who talked like this must have thought quite differently.
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#72

Сообщение asil »

acapnotic,
I have an ever growing feeling that you need to find the original text: too many things sound weird here.
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#73

Сообщение Michelangelo »

This is the original text. The author tried to make up a new language, I think :)
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#74

Сообщение acapnotic »

asil,
What do you mean by 'original text'? I took it from a book I'm now reading. Fritz Leiber's The Green Millennium. This is the only phrase in it that has puzzled me so far, and I'm almost finishing the book. Its language is much smoother than that of The Big Time, and I'm enjoying it.

The plot is also much more intriguing, so if anyone is looking for something to read, I can recommend giving this book a try.
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#75

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic пишет: 10 ноя 2020, 15:01 I can recommend giving this book a try.
acapnotic пишет: 10 ноя 2020, 14:39 it still looks weird. As if it had been invented by aliens from outer space.
Are you sure that we'll understand the aliens from outer space?
Sometimes (or even often enough) we are not able to understand aliens from the US or UK.
Moreover, we cannot understand our neighbours very often :) to say nothing about aliens from outer space :)
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