Split infinitives

Обсуждение вопросов, нюансов и тонкостей грамматики английского языка любого уровня.

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nepik
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#1

Сообщение nepik »

Начал смотреть видео, которым поделился Xander и возникла пара вопросов (1:10 - 2:00)
Xander пишет: 07 апр 2018, 15:23 Немного оффтоп, но ... вот здесь, на мой взгяд, очень показательный пример того, как надо работать с голосом (на публику или только на камеру, не суть важно).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq5g82Kx8c4&lis ... 0s&index=1
Не понял почему предложение: "He decided to quickly leave the room" трансформировалось в "He decided quickly to leave the room".
Ощущение, что quickly теперь относится к decided, а не к leave. Нельзя сказать "He decided to leave the room quickly"?

И про второе prescriptive rule не понял. т.е. предложения "What are you looking for", "What are you thinking about", "Who is he talking to" etc.. считаются грамматически неправильными?
Последний раз редактировалось nepik 07 апр 2018, 18:42, всего редактировалось 1 раз.
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Chaika
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#2

Сообщение Chaika »

1.
He quickly decided to leave. quickly>decide
He decided to leave quickly. quickly>leave

He decided to quickly leave. quickly>leave

2.
What are you asking a question like that for?
It may be ungrammatical (I don't know) but it is extremely common to end a sentence with a preposition.
Even to the extent that there is a joke about someone saying:
Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.
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Mike
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#3

Сообщение Mike »

nepik,
Это как раз примеры того, как prescriptive rules могут вступать в противоречие с реальными языковыми нормами. Вы правы, в варианте He decided quickly to leave the room наречие quickly уже определяет decided и искажает смысл.
И предлоги в конце уже давно стали нормой.
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Yety
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#4

Сообщение Yety »

Chaika пишет: 07 апр 2018, 18:19 Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.
)))
Изображение

Эти две bogus 'errors' занимают первые два места в хит-параде:
http://theweek.com/articles/467053/7-bo ... orry-about

Так же как и здесь:
https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/19/non-errors/
О некоторых занудствах во второй половине списка лучше и не знать...)))

Хартия "вольностей":
https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/17-g ... orryi.html
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Avaddon
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#5

Сообщение Avaddon »

Oxford A-Z of English Usage(En-En)
preposition

A preposition is a word such as after, in, to, or with, which usually comes before a noun or pronoun and establishes the way it relates to what has gone before (the man on the platform, they came after dinner, and what did you do it for?).
The superstition that a preposition should always precede the word it governs and should not end a sentence, as it does in the last example given above, seems to have developed from an observation by the 17th-century poet John Dryden. It is not based on a real appreciation of the structure of English, which regularly separates words that are grammatically related.
There are cases when it is either impossible or sounds stilted to organize the sentence in a way that avoids a preposition at the end, as demonstrated by Churchill’s famous This is the sort of English up with which I will not put. By the same token, the pithy phrase I want to meet the people worth talking to becomes convoluted when reorganized as I want to meet the people with whom it is worthwhile to talk.
The following are cases where it is generally impossible to reorganize the sentence.
First, in relative clauses and questions featuring phrasal verbs (verbs with linked adverbs or prepositions): what did Marion think she was up to?; they must be convinced of the commitment they are taking on; budget cuts themselves are not damaging: the damage depends on where the cuts are coming from.
Second, in passive constructions: the dress had not even been paid for; we were well looked after.
Last, in short sentences including an infinitive with to: there are a couple of things I want to talk to you about.
In conclusion, in more formal writing you might consider not leaving a preposition dangling at the end of the sentence when you are absolutely sure that putting it elsewhere will not result in the sentence becoming stilted or unnatural. Generally, however, finishing a sentence with a preposition is a natural part of the structure of English; those who object to it are perpetuating an antiquated shibboleth.

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Ending Sentences with Prepositions. The spurious rule about not ending sentences with prepositions is a remnant of Latin grammar, in which a preposition was the one word that a writer could not end a sentence with. But Latin grammar should never straitjacket English grammar. If the superstition is a “rule” at all, it is a rule of rhetoric and not of grammar, the idea being to end sentences with strong words that drive a point home. (See sentence ends.) That principle is sound, of course, but not to the extent of meriting lockstep adherence or flouting established idiom.
The idea that a preposition is ungrammatical at the end of a sentence is often attributed to 18th-century grammarians. But that idea is greatly overstated. Bishop Robert Lowth, the most prominent 18th-century grammarian, wrote that the final preposition “is an idiom, which our language is strongly inclined to: it prevails in common conversation, and suits very well with the familiar style in writing.” A Short Introduction to English Grammar 137 (rev. ed. 1782). The furthest Lowth went was to urge that “the placing of the preposition before the relative is more graceful, as well as more perspicuous; and agrees much better with the solemn and elevated style.” Ibid. That in itself is an archaic view that makes modern writing stuffy; indeed, Lowth elsewhere made the same plea for hath: “Hath properly belongs to the serious and solemn style; has to the familiar.” Ibid. at 56. But in any event, Lowth’s statement about prepositions was hardly intended as a “rule.”
Winston Churchill’s witticism about the absurdity of this bugaboo should have laid it to rest. When someone once upbraided him for ending a sentence with a preposition, he rejoined, “That is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I shall not put.” Avoiding a preposition at the end of the sentence sometimes leads to just such a preposterous monstrosity.
Perfectly natural-sounding sentences end with prepositions, particularly when a verb with a preposition-particle appears at the end (as in follow up or ask for). E.g.: “The act had no causal connection with the injury complained of.” When one decides against such formal (sometimes downright stilted) constructions as of which, on which, and for which—and instead chooses the relative that—the preposition is necessarily sent to the end of the sentence: “This is a point on which I must insist” becomes far more natural as “This is a point that I must insist on.” And consider the following examples:


Correct and Natural Correct and Stuffy
people worth talking to people to whom it is
worth talking
What are you thinking About what are you
about? thinking?
the man you were the man to whom you
listening to were listening
a person I have great a person for whom I
respect for have great respect
a habit I want to stick to a habit to which
I want to stick


In 1947, a scholar summed up the point: “Those who insist that final prepositions are inelegant are taking from the English language one of its greatest assets—its flexibility—an advantage realized and practiced by all our greatest writers except a few who, like Dryden and Gibbon, tried to fashion the English language after the Latin.” Margaret M. Bryant, “The End Preposition,” 8 College English 204 (Jan. 1947). Is more authority needed? Here it is:


• “If the sense is clear and the effect is smooth, there is no reason for avoiding the final preposition. It would be absurd to object to What are you looking for? and require the very awkward For what are you looking?” Janet Rankin Aiken, Commonsense Grammar 149 (1936).
• “Though by its very name a preposition is ‘placed before’ a noun, modern English idiom allows, and has always allowed, it to be placed after, and often as the last word in the sentence.” G.H. Vallins, Good English: How to Write It 154 (1951).
• “In some expressions the preposition is by the custom of the language forced to the end.” G.H. Vallins, Better English 61 (4th ed. 1957).
• “In regard to the placing of the preposition, we should do well to divest ourselves of the notion that it is ‘an inelegant word to end a sentence with’ and that, just because it is called a pre-position, it must therefore ‘be placed before.’” Simeon Potter, Our Language 101 (rev. ed. 1966).
• “Though I doubt that many persons still take it seriously . . . , perhaps there are still those who need to be gently told that no self-respecting writer or speaker has ever bothered to conform to this most errant of all imagined rules of ‘grammar.’” Ellsworth Barnard, English for Everybody 101 (1979). / “Nobody would ask, ‘To what is the world coming?’ rather than ‘What is the world coming to?’” Ibid. at 111.


Good writers don’t hesitate to end their sentences with prepositions if doing so results in phrasing that seems natural:


• “‘[E]ntire unanimity’ refers to unanimity among those who constitute the greatest number thought of.” Harry Thurston Peck, “What Is Good English?” in What Is Good English? and Other Essays 3, 16–17 (1899).
• “Whatever truth may be, it is worth staying for.” Paul M. Fulcher, “The Seven Lamps of Style,” in The Foundations of English Style 3, 6 (Paul M. Fulcher ed., 1927).
• “When we grow older and have something to write about we often don’t write letters because we are afraid of being dull. And that is a very good thing to be afraid of.” S.P.B. Mais, The Writing of English 22 (1935).
• “Ganesa, who is every reader, found his attention continually held and did not ask to be let off.” Gorham Munson, The Written Word 31 (rev. ed. 1949). / “Falling into the wrong word-environment for your new word is a hazard to watch out for.” Ibid. at 91.
• “The great majority of reviews give an inadequate or misleading account of the book that is dealt with.” George Orwell, “I Write as I Please,” in Shooting an Elephant and Other Essays 164, 167 (1950).
• “The peculiarities of legal English are often used as a stick to beat the official with.” Ernest Gowers, Plain Words: Their ABC 13 (1954).
• “In the structure of the ‘coherent sentence,’ such particles are necessary, and, strip the sentence as bare as you will, they cannot be entirely dispensed with.” G.H. Vallins, The Best English 30 (1960).
• “Poetry, as Dr. Johnson said, is untranslatable and hence, if it is good, preserves the language it is written in.” Anthony Burgess, A Mouthful of Air 156 (1992).
• “It was the boys in the back room, after all, whom Marlene Dietrich felt comfortable drinking with.” Russell Baker, “Sexwise It’s the Pits,” N.Y. Times, 17 Apr. 1993, at 15.
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