The novice begins to

[acapnotic]

What's your solution of choice, btw? Just curious.

Try guessing. That way we'll see if you understand what it's all about. ;)

Do you honestly, in your heart, believe this?

Yes, why not? Knowledge is power.

And what will count as truth exactly? Who's to say what it is?

About me? I am.

Horney? What gave her that authority, I wonder?

My trust in her. Она тётка умная. (с) :)

And what is this normal you are striving for? She herself is extremely vague on the subject.

Not the normal but the genuine. I don't remember her writing anywhere about striving for the normal. Where did you see it?

[Easy-Breezy English]

Try guessing.

No fair! I don't know you, so how am I supposed to guess?

Well, self-effacing is clearly out. Of the expansive group there are three: the narcissistic, the perfectionistic, and the arrogant-vindictive. Don't see much vindictiveness in your case. So, a combination of narcissism and perfectionism would be my guess. Which later in life morphed into resignation as sort of a sanity saving strategy.
Am I anywhere close to home at all? Total guesstimating on my part.

About me? I am.

So, right now you don't seem to know the truth about yourself, but by jumping through a few psychoanalytical hoops you expect to discover it? What makes you think this would work?

Она тётка умная.

She's okay, but not without her very obvious limitations. Very early-20th-century kind of thinking - often insightful, but vague, over-ambitious and painfully unscientific.

Not the normal but the genuine. I don't remember her writing anywhere about striving for the normal. Where did you see it?

Normal, genuine - same thing. Her point is that we are to cast off our hangups (sorry, protective mechanisms) and to embrace our real selves. What these real selves are supposed to be, though, remains conspicuously unclear.
Personally, I think that our hangups and idiosyncrasies make us who we are. Strip them away, and there won't be much left of us.

Psychoanalysis can be helpful but it has to be taken for what it is. It's about as instrumental in discovering the truth as voodoo medicine. But then again, a lot depends on how you define truth, I suppose.

[acapnotic]

Am I anywhere close to home at all?

Yes, in the resignation part. As for the morphing, I don't know. My early childhood memories are few and vague.

So, right now you don't seem to know the truth about yourself, but by jumping through a few psychoanalytical hoops you expect to discover it?

I'm not jumping through any hoops. What do you mean by them? All I do is merely self-observation and interpretation, using Horney's theory of neurosis for hints. So far it has worked pretty well, it seems.

She's okay, but not without her very obvious limitations.

Who is without limitations? Name a few.

Normal, genuine - same thing.

Not to me. Normal means some standard but genuine doesn't. When I want to be normal, I pretend, which is the direct opposite of being genuine.

Personally, I think that our hangups and idiosyncrasies make us who we are. Strip them away, and there won't be much left of us.

So what? Yes, if you have a dislocated ankle, it makes you a person with a dislocated ankle. But what is so good in having one, I still fail to understand. If fixing it will make my personality less rich, I'm totally okay with it. Dislocated joints, be they physical or phychic, don't make people more attractive to me. Quite the contrary.

Well, if you are a vindictive type, you may prefer people around you to continue to suffer from their problems. They deserve it, don't they? :) We already know that you like to frustrate people with self-contradictions, don't we? :)

Psychoanalysis can be helpful

It's about as instrumental in discovering the truth as voodoo medicine.

How is it helpful, then?

But then again, a lot depends on how you define truth, I suppose.

I don't define it in any special way and don't understand your concern in this regard. Can you elaborate?

[Easy-Breezy English]

using Horney's theory of neurosis for hints

These are the hoops you chose to jump through at the moment.

if you have a dislocated ankle, it makes you a person with a dislocated ankle.

(Back to body parts? )))
It just makes you a person, is all.

But what is so good in having one, I still fail to understand.

It's neither good nor bad. It's just the way it is.

If fixing it will make my personality less rich, I'm totally okay with it.

Are you a programmer or something?

We already know that you like to frustrate people with self-contradictions

Do I frustrate you? ))))) It wasn't my intention.

How is it helpful, then?

As a general anxiety-reducing mechanism. If you feel like you are overwhelmed with tension, psychoanalysis can offer a way to make sense of it all. It gives you a feeling of control in a way. It's fine, and it's a step, but you have to bear in mind that ultimately it's entirely speculative. Horney said something, I said something, and so did Иван Иванович - it's all in the same category.

I don't believe that it solves anything in the long run, and it has certain side effects. It reinforces self-fixation in some people, and it also offers simplistic solutions to fairly complex problems. This is always attractive, of course, but often problematic.

But it's an interesting toy to dabble with, so enjoy. )

[mustang]

and so did Иван Иванович

No mention of my name? What have I done to you to be treated so poorly?

[mustang]

Is it yes or is it no?

[acapnotic]

These are the hoops you chose to jump through at the moment.

Then there are always some hoops. We are not gods and can't get something, knowledge included, just by wishing it. We have to look here and there, and if someone points in a certain direction and we go there and find what they said we would find, then what's the problem?

It just makes you a person, is all.

I'll continue to be a person without it. Would you stop being a person if you stopped indulging in self-contradiction? :) Obviously not. Besides, what about your advice to me to stop indulging in self-pity? Do you want me to stop being a person?

It's neither good nor bad. It's just the way it is.

It's bad because it causes pain and inconvenience. Otherwise it wouldn't be a problem and I wouldn't want to fix it.

Do I frustrate you? ))))) It wasn't my intention.

We don't always know our real intentions. :) Maybe if you jumped through a couple of hoops, you'd learn something new about yourself, who knows? :)

I don't believe that it solves anything in the long run

It can't solve anything, only I can -- if I want it. But first I need to recognize my problems and what causes them. Horney herself writes that some people are only interested in self-exploration but not in change. So there's no guarantee, obviously.

but you have to bear in mind that ultimately it's entirely speculative.

What is speculative? Neurosis? Its types?

Horney said something, I said something, and so did Иван Иванович - it's all in the same category.

Not to me. What people say makes more or less sense, and sometimes the difference is huge.

[Easy-Breezy English]

if someone points in a certain direction and we go there and find what they said we would find

And isn't THAT a tempting thought, huh? )) And aren't we all looking for something like that...

It's bad because it causes pain and inconvenience.

Yeah, being human isn't always the most convenient thing, true. ) But it is highly unlikely that psychoanalysis will help you with that condition.

Maybe if you jumped through a couple of hoops, you'd learn something new about yourself, who knows? :)

Would you like me to? )

What is speculative?

Psychoanalysis. It's no science or anywhere close to a science. What I don't like about it is that it a priori categorizes just about everybody as unwell and pretends to offer solutions that rarely work. In fact, I don't know anybody who has been actually helped by therapy, save for fixing some very specific problems. Yet, it is treated as a bona fide science, and psychoanalysts enjoy a nearly god-like status. Why?

Not to me. What people say makes more or less sense, and sometimes the difference is huge.

You are just picking whatever suits your agenda. I'm telling you that you are too stuck on yourself and your issues. That's your real problem, being too self-centered - and more self-exploration is likely to make it worse, not better. But it's not something you are willing to hear, so you'll go with Horney. That's fine because in reality neither her words, nor mine have much of real basis.

[Easy-Breezy English]

No mention of my name?

mustang, this thread is for people with ISSUES. I've already told you this, right?
Do you have issues? No. So, move on, shoot some deer. :-)

[acapnotic]

And isn't THAT a tempting thought, huh? )) And aren't we all looking for something like that...

Maybe. So what? Should we reject help from others just because it's tempting to accept it? That's a very strange way of thinking.

Yeah, being human isn't always the most convenient thing, true. )

Especially if you refuse to fix your dislocated joints. :) Because you believe that they make you a person. :/ And that there is almost nothing in you except them. :(

Would you like me to? )

It's up to you. I hope I can spot your issues without that. :)

Psychoanalysis.

Okay, so neither neurosis nor its types are speculative. Fine.

But it's not something you are willing to hear

Why do you think so? I hear you well. It's another matter that I don't believe you.

This is actually an interesting situation, from a psychoanalytical point of view. You repeat the same statements as if you really think that I didn't hear you the previous time. Which implies that the idea that someone may not believe something that you say is to you highly implausible. Even though that someone is a stranger on an Internet forum and knows nothing about you. Apparently one of your issues is the good old self-aggrandizement. Did you know that? :)

Of course, if you have another explanation, I'm curious to hear it.

[Easy-Breezy English]

I hope I can spot your issues without that.

I'll help you along, how about that? :-)
I've already gone the way you are going right now and discovered that it's a false lead and there's nothing there. Since that was a disappointing realization, now I hold my grudge against psychoanalysis and all its advocates. So, I'm just trying to get my hard feelings validated by someone with significantly above-average intelligence.
Did you to see that coming? Is it explained somewhere in your book? )))

the idea that someone may not believe something that you say is to you highly implausible

And what if it's the other way? What if the idea that someone might actually believe me is so implausible that it drives me to repeat the same thing over and over again? :-)

[mustang]

mustang, this thread is for people with ISSUES. I've already told you this, right?

Ok, I see you want to get rid of me ASAP , free up more time to keep on tormenting the poor guy. But you still have not answered my question. Where's my forum nickname in your posts? I have really got used to reading "mustang said this , mustang did that" in every second post of yours even when what you are discussing with other people has nothing to do with me personally.

It has been a great self-esteem booster for me - knowing that someone somewhere cares so deeply about me that she is more than willing to write my fake name a million times over.

And yep, now I have the ISSUE and you know exactly who what's causing it.

[acapnotic]

I've already gone the way you are going right now

I doubt that. There are different psychoanalyses, as you know. Unless you were reading Horney's book and comparing what she writes with what you saw in yourself, it wasn't my way. At the very least you used a different guide to the hidden treasure, so if you failed to find it, that may be the reason.

Besides, you may have been looking for something different. So there are at least two variables in the equation. Another two are the differences in our personalities and our situations in life. I may be better equipped for the journey or my motivation may be stronger, or I just have more time to waste.

It's only natural if you don't want me to succeed where you failed. It might explain why you are so eager to discourage me. Just a guess, of course. :) Besides, you probably look down on me and think that if YOU failed, I can't succeed by definition. That's all understandable, so don't worry -- I'll feel superior anyway. :) The protective mechanism is at work.

So, I'm just trying to get my hard feelings validated by someone with significantly above-average intelligence.

Who are you talking about? Me? But until I've gone my way to the end, I can neither confirm nor rebut your feelings.

What if the idea that someone might actually believe me is so implausible that it drives me to repeat the same thing over and over again?

What for? I don't see the logic. Usually we avoid doing something that is highly unlikely to work out. But if you think that your opponent is either deaf or stupid, or absent-minded, then it makes sense to repeat something he failed to understand the first time.

[Easy-Breezy English]

Besides, you probably look down on me and think that if YOU failed, I can't succeed by definition.

Is this a projection? Is this how YOU would feel in my position? Very telling... LOL!

I don't see the logic. Usually we avoid doing something that is highly unlikely to work out.

Are we always logical? If we were, there'd be no demand for such books as the one you are reading right now. No experts would be getting rich or advancing their careers... What a truly alarming thought!
How logical is your neurosis? Why can't you just stop your self-destructive behaviors, as I told you to?

Ya know what, you might just benefit from this book. )
So, enjoy. )

[acapnotic]

Is this a projection?

Projections are unconscious, as far as I understand. So no, it's just reasoning by analogy. ;)

Are we always logical?

Of course. That's why it's possible to discover hidden motives, beliefs, feelings -- because your behavior is their logical consequence. As long as you don't know them, you won't feel free, because it'll often look like you want one thing but do another. As if you are controlled by something that isn't you.

How logical is your neurosis? Why can't you just stop your self-destructive behaviors, as I told you to?

Because I don't want to stop them, obviously. I have some valid reasons for that, no doubt, whether I know them or not. My neurosis isn't something separate from me -- it's the structure of my psyche. So it's obvious that I can't just throw it away -- it's not a thing. I can only change it into something better.

[Easy-Breezy English]

As long as you don't know them, you won't feel free

I guess the assumption here is that if we uncover them, we'll walk free. I wish it worked that way. :-)
Not to mention that our behavior is controlled by a myriad of various things, chemicals (hormones) probably being the most powerful.

But I don't feel like keeping you from enjoying your love affair with Horney's intellectual charms any longer. :-) It's obviously doing something for you - at the very least it's distracting you from that nuclear blast imagery. Which is already a significant accomplishment. Look up her bio, btw, in case you haven't already. Quite curious.

[mustang]

Easy-Breezy English,

I shot some deer but still no answer :-<{

[Easy-Breezy English]

I shot some deer

Okay, cruelty to animals... The Macdonald triad? ASPD? Let's figure out what kind of psycho you are. )

[acapnotic]

I guess the assumption here is that if we uncover them, we'll walk free.

Not just uncover but identify with them. Include them in your self-image, in what you think of when you say 'I'. And, on the other hand, move your identity off something in that image that isn't real and makes you have unrealistic expectations, either of yourself or of others in their reaction to you. It's the freedom of being yourself, no more and no less, and living your life rather than playing a role. I mean playing unconsciously, without realizing what's going on, and wrongly identifying with the imaginary character that you play.

So, the truth I'm looking for is the accurate self-image, the correct identity. I want to become one with myself. As of now, my self-image is definitely distorted. It's the problem of having an incorrect model of reality and so interacting with it incorrectly.

Not to mention that our behavior is controlled by a myriad of various things, chemicals (hormones) probably being the most powerful.

Yes, but I don't think I can mess with my chemicals in any sensible way.

Look up her bio, btw, in case you haven't already.

I have. She attempted suicide once, but in the end wrote a great book, so probably she knew something about neurosis and human growth. :)

[Easy-Breezy English]

It's the problem of having an incorrect model of reality and so interacting with it incorrectly.

Alrighty then. I can only wish you luck in your audacious endeavor.

What's your motivation for telling me all this, btw? An honest question.

[acapnotic]

What's your motivation for telling me all this, btw?

I wanted to show off, of course. Also, they say talking helps us think. I've noticed quite a few times that I understand something better if I try to explain it to someone. So I think it's a mix of these two motives.

What was your motivation for taking part in this discussion?

[Easy-Breezy English]

I've noticed quite a few times that I understand something better if I try to explain it to someone.

Very true.

What was your motivation for taking part in this discussion?

I have a thing for smart screwed-up guys. And since you very smart, very screwed-up and, allegedly, a guy, I just couldn't let this go, right? :-)

[acapnotic]

diagnosing someone else for a change. :)

Yeah, there's nothing like diagnosing innocent bystanders...I know the feeling. :-) Gives you this incredibly empowering and gratifying illusion of control over what's inherently uncontrollable. I'd guess it was Horney's motivation as well, don't you think? And her shortcomings can be traced to the same source. Or so it would seem, anyway.

Our diagnosing is a joke. As for Horney, she viewed it as a long and complex process, impossible without the patient's cooperation. She used the word 'untangling' to describe it. You seem to have a rather simplistic view of her. But her view of her job definitely wasn't simplistic.

Btw, you are not an innocent bystander if you know the feeling. :)

[Easy-Breezy English]

But her view of her job definitely wasn't simplistic.

I'm sure it wasn't. One look at her life story is enough to get a clue.

Sorry, I didn't mean to dissect your idol again. I know this means a lot to you.

[acapnotic]

Sorry, I didn't mean to dissect your idol again.

No problem, feel free to do it. I'm all for freedom of thought and speech. However, it goes both ways. You are entitled to an opinion about Horney and I am entitled to an opinion about your opinion. :)