translation-grammar technique vs non- translation-non-grammar technique

Discuss any questions in English. Practise your writing skills.

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Michelangelo
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#1

Сообщение Michelangelo »

Hello friends and members of the forum!

Let's discuss educational techniques here where we must write in English only to clearly demonstrate whether we based our English skills on a translation technique or we use the English language directly as it is.

Of course Russian interference won't be clearly seen in the texts of those with Level C2 in English, however, I am sure that it will be obvious in those with the vocabulary of 5000 words, or even in those with up to 10 000 words in their vocabulary.

This way we are going to eliminate any disputes as to whether a person translate when writes or speaks or use English idioms and collocations directly without calqueing Russian structures into English texts.

Let's do that and see ! :)
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#3

Сообщение Michelangelo »

garans
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#4

Сообщение garans »

Suppose You don't know Papua language.
But you want to learn it.

How can you make it if you have a native guide to support you?

I think, first of all you will ask for the most ordinary and important words like food, man and woman, child, tree, banana, to eat, to go, to run, to see ec.

In fact you will try to make your own vocabulary of Papua language, in one or two directions.
If you want someone to use results of your work - you will make two ways dictionary.

Is it a translation or what?

The most important factor in your work: you know that there is a very effective thing for people' practice - a language.
And Papua have their language, phonetics, rules etc. which are important for them and You need to learn them.

After several days of such work you will practice their language and collect new words, phrases and rules.
Is it a translation or what?
Do you think in Russian or in English or in Papua?

My opinion: You think human thoughts.
But you translate your thoughts in a certain language.

Of course your native language gives you means without any delay.
But it doesn't matter, all the other languages that you know will give you their words and sentences.
But you just reject those languages and try to think and use Papua.

Thus, translation is everywhere, even in your own language.
Words and phrases are images of human thoughts.
Otherwise a translation would be impossible.

Every living thing has it's "thoughts".
That's why writers give souls to dogs and other animals...
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Michelangelo
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#5

Сообщение Michelangelo »

garans пишет: 04 дек 2019, 14:42 Is it a translation or what?
Exactly! This is the question!
How a person could learn new words and phrases and structures directly once the person knew already the names of everything in another language. The person must forget the first language and learn all the words, structures and grammar of the new language from scratch. Otherwise it will be a pseudo-translation way of studying IMHO.
garans пишет: 04 дек 2019, 14:42 your native language gives you means without any delay.
Then, in order to get rid of interference of your native language you have to forget it. Some people who live in the country of the studying language could forget their own language in a year or two and then they become open to the new language and they start to absorb new structures directly by building new neurons links in their brain. Astrologer is right saying that it is difficult to build up a new language in your brain when you are living among Russian-speaking population and watching Russian-speaking television day from day and each day. You need to isolate yourself from Russian and create an English speaking environment to learn the language directly IMHO. Like some people say "It is enough to spend one hour a day to learn English", it isn't going to be a productive way of a direct learning English. You need to hear and read English 24 hours a day/7 days a week. And then you may succeed. Not in a year, but in a couple of years - it may be possible.
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#6

Сообщение garans »

Michelangelo пишет: 04 дек 2019, 14:59 Then, in order to get rid of interference of your native language you have to forget it. Some people who live in the country of the studying language could forget their own language in a year or two and then they become open to the new language and they start to absorb new structures directly by building new neurons links in their brain. Astrologer is right saying that it is difficult to build up a new language in your brain when you are living among Russian-speaking population and watching Russian-speaking television day from day and each day. You need to isolate yourself from Russian and create an English speaking environment to learn the language directly IMHO. Like some people say "It is enough to spend one hour a day to learn English", it isn't going to be a productive way of a direct learning English. You need to hear and read English 24 hours a day/7 days a week. And then you may succeed. Not in a year, but in a couple of years - it may be possible.
Well, English is not a cool thing for native speakers.

What for are your time and struggle, how will you use your English to help you in Russian environment for your advantage?
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#7

Сообщение Michelangelo »

garans, For now, I've only a goal I have been saying about many times - reading English books. Additionally I can watch movies without Russian subtitles.
Of course we can go on without any English. We can continue living like under soviet time - without knowing any language.
However, some people would like to work for foreign companies now, some people would like to get married with foreigners, or immigrate - and some of them want to know English well to communicate with people easily or even beautifully. Maybe it is just a matter of pride and they could have an intermediate level to cover all their needs, but what is wrong if they want to know the language like native speakers know? I think we can try to do our best but be happy with what we have. Why not?
This topic I opened because in the parallel thread people discuss a better way to learn English and I am not sure that those who claim that they don't use Russian in building up English texts really can write like natives without direct translation from Russian into English. I think that even the best of them will from time to time look for support in their native language to write something in English.

This is just an academic interest without any practical benefit.
I understand you are looking for something which you could use in practice. I am not practical. Usually I do it as a hobby, but sometimes I could use it for something useful. For example I could speak to foreigners who are on a business trip at our Company.

I don't go abroad and I have never been there and don't want to go there even on a trip.
I can use it (English) at home from time to time. Without a clear benefit. You are right.
Последний раз редактировалось Michelangelo 04 дек 2019, 15:53, всего редактировалось 1 раз.
garans
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#8

Сообщение garans »

Michelangelo пишет: 04 дек 2019, 15:17 I can use it (English) at home from time to time. Without a clear benefit. You are right.
I fully understand it.
Michelangelo пишет: 04 дек 2019, 15:17 but what is wrong if the want to know the language like native speakers know? I think we can try to do our best but be happy with what we have. Why not?
To tell the truth I'm against such a motto. (or slogan)

If a man isn't a translator, it is a waste of time, if he/she hasn't special abilities.

It is not a bad thing - to try to do like professionals or natives, but is it a real valuable thing?

But I am not against it - everybody can choose what he want.
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#9

Сообщение Michelangelo »

garans пишет: 04 дек 2019, 15:39 If a man isn't a translator
Why do you think translators must know the language to be learnt like a native language? It is absolutely not necessary. Translators must know their native language better in order to translate English into Russian perfectly.
Of course if they translate Russian into English they must be like a native English speaker/citizen to describe everything so that natives could think that their compatriot wrote the translation.

Let people have their hobby an do what they like to do in their leisure time. Let them write here in Russian, or learn English to the height of the usage of it by highly educated native speakers :)
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#10

Сообщение garans »

Michelangelo пишет: 04 дек 2019, 15:58
garans пишет: 04 дек 2019, 15:39 If a man isn't a translator
Why do you think translators must know the language to be learnt like a native language? It is absolutely not necessary. Translators must know their native language better in order to translate English into Russian perfectly.
Of course if they translate Russian into English they must be like a native English speaker/citizen to describe everything so that natives could think that their compatriot wrote the translation.

Let people have their hobby an do what they like to do in their leisure time. Let them write here in Russian, or learn English to the height of the usage of it by highly educated native speakers :)
Translators are professionals and work with language all life long.
They need to have an excellent English.

Other people in Russia (except only a few) have no such need.
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#11

Сообщение Michelangelo »

garans пишет: 04 дек 2019, 16:39 They need to have an excellent English.
Like I wrote above, they need to know the language into which they translate perfectly, and it is good if they know the language from which they translate at a B2-C1 level. What they are missing, they could look up in a dictionary :)
I believe you have translated some texts from English into Russian. I am sure in this case Russian was more important for you than English as you had to put Russian words clearly and understandable and you didn't care about the English text unless it was weird and incomprehensible, in which case sometimes even super knowledge in English wouldn't help.
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#12

Сообщение garans »

Michelangelo пишет: 04 дек 2019, 16:54
garans пишет: 04 дек 2019, 16:39 They need to have an excellent English.
Like I wrote above, they need to know the language into which they translate perfectly, and it is good if they know the language from which they translate at a B2-C1 level. What they are missing, they could look up in a dictionary :)
I believe you have translated some texts from English into Russian. I am sure in this case Russian was more important for you than English as you had to put Russian words clearly and understandable and you didn't care about the English text unless it was weird and incomprehensible, in which case sometimes even super knowledge in English wouldn't help.
To tell the truth, I think that you are completely wrong.

The better you know English and english-speaking world, the harder is your work as a translator.
Of course if you are not a crooked.
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#13

Сообщение Michelangelo »

garans пишет: 04 дек 2019, 17:08 The better you know English and english-speaking world, the harder is your work as a translator.
Why? If you want to translate into English, you must know habits of English people. Do you think it is wrong to know what people of the target language think and how they live and how they speak?
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acapnotic
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#14

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 04 дек 2019, 14:59 You need to hear and read English 24 hours a day
Even at night? I can't read with my eyes closed. Can you?
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#15

Сообщение garans »

Michelangelo пишет: 04 дек 2019, 17:37
garans пишет: 04 дек 2019, 17:08 The better you know English and english-speaking world, the harder is your work as a translator.
Why? If you want to translate into English, you must know habits of English people. Do you think it is wrong to know what people of the target language think and how they live and how they speak?
Well, we don't understand each other.

Once I read Pygmalion by B.Shaw with comments for Russian readers.
There were a half of the book of comments and explanations.
Where could I know all those things from?
How could I know that those things were important for better understanding?
zymbronia
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#16

Сообщение zymbronia »

garans пишет: 04 дек 2019, 17:58 How could I know that those things were important for better understanding?
I must reread it. When I read it without any comments I guessed I could understand everything. It was many years ago. Maybe more than ten when I didn't almost know English at all. It seemed to me an easy reading at that time. Is the book you read on-line? Is it possible to read the comments? Just interesting what I missed :)
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#17

Сообщение garans »

zymbronia пишет: 04 дек 2019, 20:10 Just interesting what I missed :)
In fact we miss a lot.
That's why we often cannot get a joke.

Even when they explain I wonder - why they do laugh?
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#18

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic пишет: 04 дек 2019, 17:54 Even at night? I can't read with my eyes closed. Can you?
Just try to imagine a text in English and read it from your mind with your eyes closed. Just try. You will see it is even cool.
garans пишет: 04 дек 2019, 17:58 Well, we don't understand each other.
Do you mean that I don't need to understand the way English people think and act to learn English to a decent level? What is your example about then? I think your example exactly about the necessity to understand English people to feel free in using their language. Can you explain it in more detail please? What did you mean saying about Pygmalion and stuff?
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#19

Сообщение Michelangelo »

Was it going to be your only second student?
Does it mean that all you have been writing about your extended experience as a teacher is only nepik who knew at A2 level before meeting you and who prepared for his B2 exam five months beyond your four-months' course during which he additionally watched movies, read books, did grammar, visited speaking clubs and tutors?
You are a real troll, @Astrologer :)
@Opt, welcome to speak about Astrologer's extended teaching experience here :) Don't feed the troll in Russian, give him some food in English and simultaneously practise your writing skills :)
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#20

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 05 дек 2019, 09:33 Just try to imagine a text in English and read it from your mind with your eyes closed.
Unfortunately my brain turns off my consciousness when I fall asleep. In that unconscious state I can't try anything. Lying all night without sleep is not an option because I will get exhausted and unable to do anything at all. So I am afraid your advice to learn English 24 hours a day is a little bit impractical.
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#21

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic, there are some people who say that they can do anything in their dreams even reading books. Cannot you just sleep and read books which you will be dreaming about? You will get double benefit - have a rest and increase your level in Eglish :)

You don't need to stay awaken in that case, just relax and enjoy reading. Additionally, you can turn on your mp3 player and your English audiobook and go to bed by listening your beloved book. You can fall asleep and your subconsciousness will consume information and write it to your special memory cells from where you will derive it when necessary.
No problem. Some people say it is a very productive way to learn any language and particularly English.
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#22

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 05 дек 2019, 12:21 Cannot you just sleep and read books which you will be dreaming about?
But we dream just about 15 minutes in each sleep cycle (which is about an hour and a half). During the rest of the cycle we simply lie numb and dumb. So this way we still can't experience English 24 hours a day.

Btw, have you ever dreamed of reading a book? When I have, I've never been able to read a single word from it. It was impossible for some reason. It looks like we become illiterate when in a dream.
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#23

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic, I cannot be sure if I could clearly remember reading books in English while dreaming, but I remember speaking English in dreams to other people. It is also a good practice, isn't it?
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#24

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 05 дек 2019, 13:48 It is also a good practice, isn't it?
It must be. However, I don't remember speaking English in a dream. I rarely remember my dreams, though. Even if I've had a lot of speaking practice there, I am unaware of it.

Some say that our dreams are messages from our subconscious mind. But then, why don't we remember them?
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#25

Сообщение Olya »

acapnotic,
I have never tried to read anything in my dreams. Rather strange, indeed. Since reading is my hobby and I'm wondering now how many books I remember. It sets me thinking whether reading is worth our time at all! 😃
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