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someone
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#51

Сообщение someone »

She made the forum livelier. I know she annoyed some participants, not me though.
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Michelangelo
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#52

Сообщение Michelangelo »

someone, maybe she didn't annoy you because you didn't have anything in common with her. Maybe you didn't participate in her threads, or you didn't write anything that could be interested for her. It is on the one hand, on the other hand, she could annoy and irritate mostly teachers as she declared herself to be the most advanced in teaching and the others didn't like it.
Additionally, those non-teachers who read her post could help criticising her for her grammar mistakes and they had a number of conflicts because she couldn't stand being criticised and the people like making rows when somebody disagree with what they have a strong belief in. It was rather difficult from time to time to arrived at the same terms and the threads could last long without any useful ideas but on the ground of an argument.
The forum was livelier, that is true, but there were more conflicts back than.
Moreover, are you sure that she just hasn't changed her nick and continue her conflicts? Don't we have a number of person who are making our forum livelier now in the same way as hers?
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acapnotic
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#53

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 16 янв 2020, 13:38 Now, however, we have a number of TV programmes which we believe that contradict each other, and even the same channel can translate contradictory programmes or information. That is why we don’t know what to believe in.
Yes, this poses a serious problem because it requires great flexibility and we may not have enough of it. But I think it can be trained. After a lot of practice and maybe with the help of some clever techniques we'll manage it. We'll be able to change our beliefs in the blink of an eye. And if this ability becomes essential for our survival, then we'll be selected for it, and every next generation will learn it more and more easily. So there is hope.
Michelangelo пишет: 16 янв 2020, 13:38 I prefer consistent memories.
I can sympathize with you here. However, do we really know the nature of our memory? We are used to thinking that our memories reflect how things were in the past. But there is one problem here: we can't see those things anymore. So we not only can't compare them with our memories but also can't be sure they even existed. All we have is our memories. They may be artificial as well as real. And also they may change. If they change consistently all at once, we are unlikely to notice that.

Maybe the government changes our memories every day, who knows? Or perhaps the memories of the government are also changed by someone more powerful. Maybe Putin hasn't ruled Russia for 20 years, but he believes he has and we believe the same because our memory tells us so. But in fact he may be a biorobot made at some factory just a week ago. You and I can also be such biorobots with installed memories. So, taking into account all these possibilities, the consistency of the information coming to us from TV ceases to matter all that much. All these TV channels may disapper tomorrow and we won't even notice because in our new memory they will have never existed.
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#54

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 16 янв 2020, 13:38 That is why I think they were worse than German spies, they were aliens, and even reptiloids which are continuing to rule our countries nowadays as well.
By this logic there have been a lot of aliens in world history. Take for example what happened in France during their revolution. Or during various religious wars. Human beings themselves are cruel enough, unfortunately.
Michelangelo пишет: 16 янв 2020, 13:38 To some extend, they wanted to deceive their enemies, however, they could have deceived their enemies by living a simple life of poor people
That would have been inconvenient for their work because a poor man should have a job and spend there all day. While a rich man has a lot of free time, and this is seen by everyone as natural. Living like a beggar would also be more problematic. If you stay outdoors no matter what the weather, your health will suffer. Besides, the real beggars will see you as a competitor and likely beat you and drive away. This might attract the attention of the police, and it is the last thing you need as a revolutionary.
Michelangelo пишет: 16 янв 2020, 13:38 They waited until bourgeoisie threw the tsar and in the period of hesitation and German aggression they just took advantage of the situation and took over the power without putting much effort. Wasn’t it dishonest act from their side? It was as a matter of fact.
Yes, they took advantage of the situation, but all revolutionaries do so, the bourgeois ones included. They overthrew those who had overthrone the tsar, also taking advantage of the situation. And since the tsar was a weak one, it wasn't a lot of effort either.
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#55

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 16 янв 2020, 13:38 If I could have a strong belief in something or someone, I would feel much better, drink less spirit, and be not so irritated.
You are right. We want the world we live in to be in order, so that there is some sense in what goes on in it. But now, indeed, they say we can choose what to believe in. Yet it's not what we need. I don't want to choose the shape of the sun. I want to know it. The same is true about the meaning of the world. We want some authority to tell us what it is and to provide some solid grounds for that. Then we'll be able to decide and choose for ourselves what to do and how to live. It's hard to orient yourself in chaos, where all directions are equal.

Left to my own devices, I can only say that mankind is on a risky way to an uncertain future. This is definitely not the situation I'd like to live in. Mankind as a whole isn't controlled by anyone, which means it's controlled by natural laws. But nature doesn't care for us. It's indifferent to our destiny and won't correct our mistakes even if they lead to our extinction.

This is why religions emerged -- they explained the world and created order out of its chaos. But now that we are aware of the existence of various religions and don't think anymore that only one of them is true, their authority has decreased. Sure you are free to choose a god for yourself, but how can you be sure that your choice is right or that there are any gods at all? In such a situation you'll probably prefer to refrain from choosing, but that leaves you in chaos.
Michelangelo пишет: 16 янв 2020, 13:38 I could agree with your statements but to the extend only, because you are looking only at one side of the issue,
As well as you. You look at those past events from today's point of view, knowing what followed from their actions. They didn't know that. Maybe if they had, they would have acted differently. First you do something, then you struggle with the unwanted consequences, then with the consequences of those consequences. This way may eventually lead you to a place that is far from your initial destination.
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#56

Сообщение Olya »

Nothing special has changed in the world and human characters for hundreds of years. If there were any changes they seem to me to have been happening at too slow a pace. And there's no way to predict precisely what will happen since there are no fortune tellers among us.
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#57

Сообщение acapnotic »

Olya пишет: 19 янв 2020, 23:25 Nothing special has changed in the world and human characters for hundreds of years.
Yes, if overpopulation is nothing special. But I don't think so. The huge amount of waste that takes hundreds of years to decompose or poisons the environment is something new, compared with the previous centuries. As for human characters, I don't know how much they can be changed culturally. Maybe only genetic engineering can solve this problem radically. I think that sooner or later humans will start amending their genetic code. What would stop them? Rather than rely on mutations, why not change it deliberately?
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#58

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic пишет: 18 янв 2020, 11:44 We'll be able to change our beliefs in the blink of an eye.
Some of us can successfully do that, and have been doing since their birth. For one, my aunt who was a devoted communist once, turned into Christianity immediately after Eltsin forbade the CPSU. She could also continue changing her beliefs depending on some strange circumstances. Usually people tend to believe those who are at the power, or who pay their wages. Why she did that, I don’t know. Maybe she has her material or moral reasons, however, I arrived at a conclusion that she just needs to believe in anything and it is much simpler to believe in what is said on television than to have own beliefs elaborated from own experience and knowledge.
Therefore, a moral is that we (a great deal of us) have already learnt to change our beliefs before someone could say Jack Robinson.
And if this ability becomes essential for our survival, then we'll be selected for it, and every next generation will learn it more and more easily.
Yes, it is essential for our survival that is why mean people who could change their beliefs at the snap of a finger managed to survive in stone age and during the whole human history. That is why mean people have survived in a greater number than strong and direct people. Those latter could go to the battlefield straightforwardly and being killed, while those former could continue to serve to another master and survive. It is just a part of evolution. Darvin said that the strongest are only able to survive, but in a community with shared responsibilities, the meanest could survive even better.
we can't see those things anymore. So we not only can't compare them with our memories but also can't be sure they even existed.
I cannot agree more. However, at this point we have to look at our beliefs. If we believe that we remember well enough, then we can compare things even when they are incomparable. Moreover, if we believe there is nothing that will be able to convince us that our memories let us down, and we will prove that our memories are valid. If a person is in doubts, and even if s/he remember things accurately, but cannot trust her/his memories, this person is doomed to let the way to those who are strong believer in what they say.

On the other hand, we could record important things and then have our records at hand in case we need compare our memories with what really happened in the past. It is a good way and many people do that, but of course it is a small number among the general population. Majority just don’t want to remember anything, they want to forget even what happened yesterday to say nothing about decades and centuries ago.
It won’t prevent me from dreaming about having consistent memories, though. One has a right to dream, doesn’t he?

And that is more than likely that our memories are artificial. At least when I speak to some of my friends, and when several or most of them start saying to me one thing, and I remember something differently, I start having doubts whose memories are artificial. When we talk over facts which could be find out in the internet I could detect that I forgot some things, but then again, I started to think of a plot according to which somebody has changed information in the internet. Of course I try to calm myself down saying that it is impossible and more likely that I just forgot or misinterpreted the information back then and memorized it wrongfully, but who really know?

I believe that in our era, it is likely that they have some devices that could change the memory of the whole humanity at once, or at least of a part of community of a specific country. I don’t think that Russia is on the frontier of this technology, however, they could receive it from the USA or from reptiloids and be taught how to use those devices. If you say that it is true, I will sooner believe you than otherwise.

As to the idea that we are biorobots, it has been close to me since I first saw the film “Teens in the Universe” where they show those robots who wanted to make those aliens happy. Since then I have had an idea that something could be wrong with the humanity and we could be a kind of artificial creature who were made in accordance with somebody’s design and this somebody doesn’t have to be God, but they could be robots, who created us – biorobots. There is only one flaw in this plot – why should we learn every single subject in our life – why haven’t they integrated some instructions into our brain so that we don’t have to waste time for studying?

Re: telechannels. As for me, if they disappear tomorrow, the humanity will be just grateful, and becomes happier. Anyway we could see all television programs in the internet now. Only people from rural regions and pensioners will regret that they disappeared as it is their most popular entertainment as for now.
Human beings themselves are cruel enough, unfortunately.
Humans just don’t know what they are about to do. They can easily be hypnotized, or their memories could be programmed to do certain things which otherwise would be considered unthinkable. Particularly, in times when a leader appears among the population and convinces that population to act in a certain way, people started to believe their leader and kill those who refuse to believe. Others become afraid of being killed and started to do what they are said to do, and they become cruel when they are told to be cruel. It can be explained by that herd instinct – the shepherd herds the flock and the flock do what the shepherd demands.
the real beggars will see you as a competitor and likely beat you and drive away
I didn’t mean that they had to live like beggars or as beggars, however, they could spare the party money and live a modest life and spend the money on the party needs and not for their own pleasure. Of course they would need to have decent clothes, and more or less appropriate living conditions, but they didn’t have to drink expensive vine and eat expensive food, particularly, in excessive amounts, what some if not all of them did. That was my idea when I noticed that they didn’t need to live on the fat of the land. However, I understand that they created their party to have that luxurious way of existence. I don’t agree only with one thing – with their lies that they did all that because they cared for the Russian people. They should have just admitted that they did that because they wanted the power and take over the state resources. Otherwise they did everything alright – they achieved everything they struggled for.
They overthrew those who had overthrone the tsar, also taking advantage of the situation.
As a matter of fact the situation was a little bit different. Tsar gave in his power for sake of democratic transformation of the country. Actually or officially he wasn’t overthrown at all, but the democracy developed in such a way that the power of those democrats became weak, and a small number of bolshevycks took advantage to establish dictate of the lowest layers of population, i.e. lumpens, which was critical for the majority of population, i.e. peasants, who were doomed to bear all the load of that dictatorship, and were wholesale slaughtered by those lumpens. That was mournful outcome of all that history with bank robberies – first they robbed banks, which could be seemed necessity and a good thing for revolution, but the revolution itself continued to rob everybody who lived in the country once banks had become empty. It is going to be a long speculation. There are a lot of historians who studied those facts purposely and cannot come to a common conclusion on what was wrong and whether there was anything good in that at all.
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#59

Сообщение Michelangelo »

I am not sure about what people want in their life. I cannot deny that somebody would think that the Sun is square after their authority tells them so. Why not? As a matter of fact we don’t know whether it is square or round, or has any other shape – we used to thinking that it is round. People are happy to believe in something. Even those who say “We don’t believe” they believe at least in their idea that they don’t believe. Those who say “God doesn’t exist” they believe in God by uttering his name even in the context of disbelief. Why do they need to use the name of God once they don’t believe in him? They could be indifferent to any kind of religions, however, if they use the name of God they must think of his existence or probability of his existence, and it could mean that they cannot deny him completely.
acapnotic пишет: 19 янв 2020, 12:03 It's hard to orient yourself in chaos, where all directions are equal.
Now we live in more or less oriented and ordered world, and only those who don’t want to stick to the rules think that the world chaos are around them. Of course with your inflamed belief you would see the world more ordered, but still it is enough to believe in your family and your company and your government to live a smooth life which is more or less ordered in accordance with common ideas. You have ideas, you have belief and you obey the laws and everything is in order. Once the laws are broken, belief is lost - the order is destroyed. No belief - no order.

You say the mankind is controlled by natural laws. I would rather say it is controlled by a number of circumstances. In a peaceful time, it is control by civic rights and laws, but when the nature comes in the scene, the control becomes elusive and we cannot fully define what stands on the top of the pyramid to control people’s behaviour. Whether it is the nature, or God or the fallen angel – that is less interesting for people in times of real chaos.
First you do something, then you struggle with the unwanted consequences, then with the consequences of those consequences.
Not always we do something with whose consequences we have to struggle. Sometimes we can succeed and become happy of what we have done. In that case we don’t need to struggle, we can just relax and enjoy our achievements. I don’t why and how some people could always succeed, and some other people could succeed never. It is not just a natural law, I think it could be just a programme of each of us which was created by some power which we are not able to comprehend, but could only guess about. Some people are already at their destination and they don’t need to struggle, or else they would fail ever. Some people they have to make their way to their destination and God protects them. I don’t know why he chooses one people to have success, and others – to fail, and a lot of people have waves in their life of successes and failures. Whether it is possible to have an evenly increasing line in your life I don’t know. Some people say it is possible, but you need to rearrange, and redo your mind, your attitude and your mentality. I am inclined to believe in it, but usually I could observe events when something just occur to people so that their life changes, sometimes in a result of their constant persistent movement towards their destination, however something might have happened before pushing them to their way to the destination; sometimes there will take place a revolt in their life, when something happened suddenly. There are different example, but really it could happen and more often beyond those people’s will or wish or moreover control. That is why we believed in natural forces under communism, and now many people started to believe in God. For me, the nature of those believes is the same – people are dependant and need to believe that their lives are lived for a purpose and not in vain.
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#60

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 24 янв 2020, 16:59 Some of us can successfully do that, and have been doing since their birth. For one, my aunt who was a devoted communist once, turned into Christianity immediately after Eltsin forbade the CPSU.
She simply replaced one shining future with another. Wasn't it a natural thing to do? Similarly you can replace a light bulb in your lamp with a new one. You need light, not a specific bulb, don't you? If one stops working, you just use another. She needed some light ahead that would make her life meaningful. When Communism was dismissed, she turned to the Kingdom of God. So her life remained meaningful and purposeful. She solved the problem posed to her by Yeltsin. What Yeltsin believed in, I don't know, maybe nothing. And you know yourself that such life is hard. You just go through the motions like a machine, having no idea why you go where you go and not in another direction. Or maybe you shouldn't go anywhere at all. You feel completely lost. You need a sense of purpose. We are simply designed that way and can't change our nature. We need what we need, even if we don't want to need it.

Genetic engineering could change it, I guess. Then we all will be like Buddhists, spending all our life in meditation and feeding on some cosmic energy. We'll sit all our life naked under a tree in absolute tranquility and peaseful happiness. We'll need neither gods nor any -isms because we'll live fully in the current moment of time and not care about either past or future, because they don't exist.

As for records about the past, there is, as usual, one problem: we can't be sure those records were made in the past and not simply emerged out of nowhere just a moment ago. This problem can't be solved. You either believe in the reality of the past or you don't, but it can't be proven. If you simply choose to believe in it, how are you better than your aunt? You just realize that if you don't believe in past and future, nothing will make any sense, so you prefer to believe in them. This is exactly what your aunt realized and did.
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#61

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 24 янв 2020, 16:59 However, I understand that they created their party to have that luxurious way of existence.
That's a very simplistic explanation. I believe they wanted to conduct a social experiment. Maybe they drank wine excessively at times when they lost their hopes that this experiment would happen in their lifetime. I've read that Lenin didn't expect the revolution to happen so soon, that it was a great surprise to him. Who knows whether or not he believed, deep down, that true socialism was possible in a country like Russia. Maybe he just couldn't resist the temptation, and so he convinced himself that there was a chance. He said that they would come to power and use that power to modernize Russia and make it ready for becoming a socialist state. I don't believe he did all that just to drink a lot of wine and sleep with lots of women. Even if he was crazy, his craziness was not about that.
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#62

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 24 янв 2020, 16:59 Tsar gave in his power for sake of democratic transformation of the country.
I don't believe that. He was no democrat and didn't give a damn about democracy. Besides, if I remember correctly, he gave his power to his brother, not to any democrats.
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#63

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 29 янв 2020, 16:50 Not always we do something with whose consequences we have to struggle.
Practically always. If you eat, you'll have to shit, which, I think, you don't like very much. If you drink alcohol, you'll have a hangover. If you start a thread on a forum, you'll have to maintain it or to feel guilty because of abandoning it. There are many more examples. Nothing is perfect, including the consequences of what we do. Which means we always dislike some of them. Sometimes they are insignificant, though, so we can simply ignore them. But this also takes some effort. You'd definitely prefer them not to exist at all, but they exist, and this annoys you.

Your life itself has the consequence of your death, which, I think, you fear, and that fear poisons the pleasure of living for you.
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#64

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic пишет: 29 янв 2020, 18:23 She simply replaced one shining future with another.
It is understandable. What I wanted to notice is that we shouldn’t believe those people who say that they believe in something as it is very easy for them to change their belief depending on circumstances. I mean that all those talks about proven faith are going on only to the limit when they bring some profit or benefit. Once they are not beneficial anymore, most of those “believers” will shed their beliefs in the twinkling of an eye. Yes their belief is justified, but they must believe deep within their heart and not to teach others who could be vulnerable to their teaching and could start really believe and when there if the time when their teachers betray their belief, it is going to hurt those who started to actually believe. Therefore I am for the situation where believers should be left alone to believe in what they want, but at the same time they must be prohibited to solicit or convert others into their faith, like it is prohibited by law to allure or solicit underage girls or boys. It is very unfair that parents are allowed to solicit their children into the parent’s belief. Maybe children have their own different opinion as to what they have to believe in.

I understand every one of us needs his/her goal in their lives, however, I cannot agree upon that that I must join a religious group and carry on all their rituals and conventions. I don’t know why but for me it is wild. I met religious people who attend their temples, and I don’t have anything against their behaviors. At the same time their behavior reminds me those scenes where shamans beat their tambourines and are leaping around fire. I just cannot accept that. However, it is a pleasure to talk with those people who believe those priests leaping around a rostrum.
We'll need neither gods nor any -isms because we'll live fully in the current moment of time and not care about either past or future, because they don't exist.
As a matter of fact, time doesn’t exist. We measure our life by time, but it doesn’t exist, therefore, our life doesn’t exist. What are we living for? Why should we bother about gods, sun and food if we do not have any life at all? Of course in that case it is much better to sit naked under a tree and meditate. It is really like a matrix – we are living in cocoons and we are out of time and life, but our brain just consumes illusions sent by a computer that we call “God”. Isn’t it weird?
As for records about the past, there is, as usual, one problem: we can't be sure those records were made in the past and not simply emerged out of nowhere just a moment ago.
It is true. And even those records we made ourselves, and believe that they are kept somewhere in our archives – how can we be sure that they have not been made a second ago and the idea about their trustworthiness was instilled into our brain a second ago too? Nothing is true, and we should believe in that “nothing” or “nothingness”. Just a complete absurd. That is why we want to be significant and for that we started to believe in anything. If not in God, then – in communism, if not in kindness, then – in power of money. We are so miserable that we are ready to believe in anything just only to raise our meaningfulness in our eyes.
acapnotic пишет: 29 янв 2020, 18:48 I believe they wanted to conduct a social experiment.
I believe that somebody wanted to perform an experiment over Russians, and made Bolsheviks their tools with which they implemented their ideas regarding such an experiment. It is hardly possible to believe that a human mind could have plotted and then realized such an awful society which we have. Only because we had that Lenin-Stalin’s country it makes it possible believe in existence of superpower that could do whatever it wants on our sinful Earth.
I've read that Lenin didn't expect the revolution to happen so soon, that it was a great surprise to him.
This is one more argument that Lenin was led by that superpower once he himself didn’t know what he was doing. In my childhood and adolescent I read some of his articles and books and I was surprised that he made an appeal to Russians to kill Russians and in the end to kill themselves. It seemed as he was out of his mind and was hypnotized by enemies of Russia who wanted just to clear the territory and then take over it.
I don't believe he did all that just to drink a lot of wine and sleep with lots of women.
I don’t know how many women he had and I will gladly believe that he lived not to have as many women as he could, but for some other purpose, but who knows? We were just taught at school that he work so much that he didn’t have time to sleep including with women. Whether it was true or lie I don’t know. I just think that if he wasn’t creazy than he wanted to have power and money in order to buy a children's railway, which he lacked in his childhood.
acapnotic пишет: 29 янв 2020, 18:58 Besides, if I remember correctly, he gave his power to his brother, not to any democrats.
As a matter of fact he did, and then his brother give in his power to the Provisional Government. I think they did that as they couldn’t imagine any other form of power but monarchy. Actually they wanted to change the situation and the Tsar himself didn’t provide any repressions against Bolsheviks, that is why they gained that large influence and support. We can arrive at a conclusion that Nikola wanted to make Russia more democratic but under rule of a monarch like it was in Great Britain. That is why I made a conclusion that he wanted to introduce a wider involvement of various layers of population in the governing Russia. It would mean that he was a democrat in his understanding of the notion.
Not always we do something with whose consequences we have to struggle.
Maybe there is a mistake. Maybe I pushed a wrong button and typed “whose” instead of “those” – I cannot figure it out now, but something is wrong in this sentence.
Michelangelo пишет: 29 янв 2020, 16:50 Sometimes we can succeed and become happy of what we have done. In that case we don’t need to struggle, we can just relax and enjoy our achievements.
Maybe I didn’t express myself precisely. I meant that it is not necessary that the consequences are always bad. The consequences may bring happiness or at least pleasure and satisfaction.
If you start a thread on a forum, you'll have to maintain it or to feel guilty because of abandoning it.
Not necessary. You can just write everything what you wanted to write and feel satisfaction with what you have done. Then you will have a new idea and you can initiate a new topic. It shouldn’t mandatory have negative consequences. It could be just a site for your speculations and fallacies.
Which means we always dislike some of them.
If only “some of them” it must mean “not always” but “sometimes we dislike some of them”. Yes, that is true, we dislike some of them or even many of them, but not all of them :). Masochists, however, would possibly like those consequences which we dislike. Therefore, not all consequences are disliked and not by everybody.

Of course the consequence of our life is death. But who said that it is a bad consequence of our life? We were born to die, so that is an inevitable consequence which couldn’t mean that it is either a bad or good one.
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#65

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 31 янв 2020, 14:26 What I wanted to notice is that we shouldn’t believe those people who say that they believe in something as it is very easy for them to change their belief depending on circumstances.
But if they can change their belief, that implies they have one. So when they say "I believe in X", they are telling the truth. Why shouldn't we believe them? Maybe we shouldn't rely on them having the same belief throughout their life, but are there many people who never change? You may get disappointed in some religion and pick another one which looks more robust to you. Isn't it a reasonable thing to do? Should you instead stick to something you don't trust anymore? I think it would be silly.
Michelangelo пишет: 31 янв 2020, 14:26 I mean that all those talks about proven faith are going on only to the limit when they bring some profit or benefit.
But why would people be interested in something that doesn't give them anything? What for? Communism promised a society where we would have everything we needed without the necessity to work for it. Christianity promises a kingdom of God where you will live forever in God's love and happiness.

Would you believe in a god who doesn't promise anything and doesn't influence your life in any way? I don't think you could find any sense in such a religion. Which means you are also looking for your benefit.
Michelangelo пишет: 31 янв 2020, 14:26 I understand every one of us needs his/her goal in their lives, however, I cannot agree upon that that I must join a religious group and carry on all their rituals and conventions.
That might only mean that you haven't find your religion yet. Or that your religion doesn't imply joining a group. Maybe your religion is the English language and you believe, not recognizing it clearly, that your life will be saved if you reach perfection in English writing. That's why you participate in our discussions so actively. Instead of leaping around a fire or singing psalms, you write posts in English. Your religious energy has found an outlet in it. You also try to convert others to your faith and invite them to write in English. If they don't want to, you criticize them as if they were bad believers who don't go to church or neglect the rituals. :)
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#66

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 31 янв 2020, 14:26 Of course the consequence of our life is death. But who said that it is a bad consequence of our life? We were born to die, so that is an inevitable consequence which couldn’t mean that it is either a bad or good one.
Yes, it's inevitable, but if you want to live, it's bad for you. If you want to die, it's good. If it's neither, then, logically speaking, you want neither to live nor to die, which is rather odd, don't you think? Obviously you must prefer one or the other.

So I am a bit confused. If you were a Buddhist or something like that, then it would be more understandable, but you don't seem to be one. Maybe Buddhists don't want anything because they think that nothing really exists, including themselves.

Death is usually preceded by suffering. Your body breaks and can't work in a normal way, which means all manner of unpleasant experiences, like pain, nausea, weakness or even paralysis. I can't believe you are indifferent to such a prospect. Well, technically speaking, all this isn't death yet, but isn't it related to the fact that "we were born to die"? If we had been born to live forever, then our body would be able to repair itself eternally.
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#67

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic пишет: 09 фев 2020, 12:01 But if they can change their belief, that implies they have one.
Surely, they have one. What I wanted to say is that it is indifferent for them in what they believe, and the main thing is just to believe, to have support in their mind by something unreal that can warm their soul, and they can change their belief easily depending on the circumstances. I don’t like that approach. I don’t like religious bigots, I don’t like those changeable people even more. A religious bigot could be frightful, but you know what you can expect from them, otherwise, you will never know what a hypocrite could do next moment.
Why shouldn't we believe them?
Why should we? Aren’t they hypocrites?

Maybe we shouldn't rely on them having the same belief throughout their life, but are there many people who never change?
I don’t know. At least some people declare their changing mind, but other, they could pretend that they support you, and then stab you on your back.

You may get disappointed in some religion and pick another one which looks more robust to you. Isn't it a reasonable thing to do?
It is OK, when you jump to the belief which is not currently popular, but when you change your belief because it has ceased to be popular, it means that you didn’t really believe but wanted to follow popularity and be like others. Whether it is good or not, I cannot tell. I think it helps survive, but for the other people who observe their behavior, it is not very much of pleasure. However, when they are among hypocrites, it is very convenient and they would feel happy to exchange with how they could adjust themselves to the environment like chameleons. It is not bad, but I don’t like that. It is rather bad for me, but not in general for survival IMHO.
Should you instead stick to something you don't trust anymore? I think it would be silly.
If you sincerely have changed, it is not bad, not good. However, I met people who were sincere in changing their beliefs. I don’t know how it could be. Usually, as far as I noticed, people are not willing to change their beliefs even after they get disappointed in the current one and in their teammates from the same church. But some people are eager to change their beliefs, their partners and their friends, and everything. It is strange to me. I think it is just God’s will to make people so different.
But why would people be interested in something that doesn't give them anything? What for?
They should be interested in something that gives them something. Religion such as Christianity or Communism doesn’t give anything immediately. It just promise to provide something after death. I understand that people want to have something important even after death, but in that case what is the difference in what to believe once any religion promises about the same and gives nothing in the real life. Of course, any religion it is a type of meditation that could bring you serenity, and I can understand those praying or meditating, but why change? If it cannot give you that calmness in your soul, you can look for something better, of course, but I believe that this is not a religion that makes you happy, but it is your own inner self-consciousness and religion can only help you to reach your self-consciousness and calm down. That is why I don’t see any reason in immediate change of religion depending on the current situation unless it is life-threatening. Change from communism to Christianity or to any other religion during dissolution of the USSR was not something that could destroy you had you not converted, was it?
Christianity promises a kingdom of God where you will live forever in God's love and happiness.
The same communism promised if not for you than for your children. However, I can agree that it refused the possession of eternal soul. Maybe it was the mistake of communism?
That might only mean that you haven't find your religion yet.
I haven’t even looked for any religion yet. I think it may find me. I rely on God and don’t want to rely on any kind of religion unless they make it a state obligation. In that case I will have to decide whether I should run away from that state or accept that belief and carry it on.
Maybe your religion is the English language and you believe
It is funny. Do you believe in English? I can only believe that I could learn something from English, but not in English :)
acapnotic пишет: 09 фев 2020, 12:01 You also try to convert others to your faith and invite them to write in English.
I think I invite them so that I become motivated and write in English even more, however, I cannot write infinitely :)
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#68

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic пишет: 12 фев 2020, 16:35 So I am a bit confused. If you were a Buddhist or something like that, then it would be more understandable, but you don't seem to be one. Maybe Buddhists don't want anything because they think that nothing really exists, including themselves.
Surprisingly I don't know what Buddhists think and what their doctrine is. However, if they believe that nothing exists, it is rather close to my understanding of this world. It is only imagination and nothing is real like in The Matrix. I think that still there is something which could create our imagination, but it is illusive and difficult to describe.

You know, even if our body could give way, it doesn't mean that all of us must suffer death. Some people are even happy when death pays them a visit. It is just like your imagination fails to exist, or even more - relief of your pain. But tell me, don't we suffer even when we are healthy? Yes, our body doesn't hurt, but many people still suffer and we cannot be sure who suffers more that person whose body is healthy or that one who is not physically healthy by our measurements.

Yes, for a yogi everything is simpler and more understandable as he could see everything from above and receive data directly from our creator whatever it is.
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#69

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 14 фев 2020, 14:45 Aren’t they hypocrites?
Strictly speaking, no. As I wrote above, if you change your beliefs, that means you have them. But hypocrites don't really believe, they only pretend to. There is simply nothing to change. Of course they must still believe in something, since they are human, but those beliefs are genuine, and we don't call them hypocrites for those ones.

If someone pretended to believe in communism and then began to pretend that he believed in Jesus Christ, then he is a hypocrite. But if he believed in communism and then something caused him to lose that faith and he found a new one in Christianity, he isn't a hypocrite. You can criticize him for his faith not being a result of his own religious studies, but that's not hypocrisy. He simply trusted some authority, who he thought to be more knowledgeable, or just the fact that Christianity has survived for so long and is still followed by so many people, so there must be some truth behind it. You may call him simple-minded or ignorant, but where is hypocrisy here?
Michelangelo пишет: 14 фев 2020, 14:45 it means that you didn’t really believe but wanted to follow popularity and be like others. Whether it is good or not, I cannot tell. I think it helps survive
Yes, it's a rule of survival ingrained in us. If you don't know what to do, do what others do. It's not hypocrisy but a kind of instinct.
Michelangelo пишет: 14 фев 2020, 14:45 Religion such as Christianity or Communism doesn’t give anything immediately. It just promise to provide something after death.
They both give a goal for your life and for the life of mankind. They make your life purposeful and meaningful. They tell what is good and bad. In other words, they turn chaos into order. They orient you in the sea of life, where otherwise all directions seem equal. When you know (or believe that you know) where you are, what for, and what is going on around you, you can make your own meaningful decisions.

Of course, it works only as long as you believe. So, if you believe neither in communism nor in Christianity, they indeed don't give you anything. You see them as unfounded promises.
Michelangelo пишет: 14 фев 2020, 14:45 it refused the possession of eternal soul. Maybe it was the mistake of communism?
But on what ground could it promise that? Comminism is based on materialism. It claims that we don't need God to achieve happiness for all. It teaches that our happiness is in our hands and so we are responsible for it.
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#70

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic пишет: 17 фев 2020, 14:04 Of course they must still believe in something, since they are human, but those beliefs are genuine, and we don't call them hypocrites for those ones.
But how we can differentiate between a genuine belief and false belief? I can distinguish one from another by frequency of their change. If a person can easily change it, it could be a sing of hypocrisy. Therefore, when I said "They could easily change their believe which should mean that they didn't believe" it must mean that I think that they don't believe. However, they could believe. Then I cannot understand why change? Nowadays nobody is burnt on fire for their beliefs. It could mean that they don't sincerely change their beliefs bu just pretend. However, there are different people in the world and those who converted, they may sincerely believe that they believe in something but they are in just search for something genuine that is why they try to try various kinds of beliefs. I don't know.
acapnotic пишет: 17 фев 2020, 14:04 They tell what is good and bad. In other words, they turn chaos into order. They orient you in the sea of life, where otherwise all directions seem equal.
True. True. I wish I could believe in something. I don't really feel any belief in my heart. My mind just tries to convince me that everybody must believe in something, and I must too, but I cannot define my beliefs. Maybe my belief is that I don't have to believe in anything sincerely and just have to doubts all beliefs?
acapnotic пишет: 17 фев 2020, 14:04 Comminism is based on materialism.
That is why people were so eager to change their belief in bright future of their children for bright life after death for themselves. The only question left, if they want now bright future for themselves after death, why they don't stop producing children while knowing that their bright future could start only after their death. It should mean that people want to have children so that they die and have bright life after death, but maybe their life was even brighter before they were born? Why those who believe in Life on Heaven want to give birth to children and then wish them to die to go to the Heavens? Isn't it a weird belief? Here communism can compete with any religion and the ideas of any of them is still weird and hard to understand.
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#71

Сообщение acapnotic »

Michelangelo пишет: 17 фев 2020, 14:30 But how we can differentiate between a genuine belief and false belief?
Well, logically speaking, if you believe in something, it's real to you. Therefore you'll take it into account when making decisions and taking actions. Your true beliefs will manifest themselves in your behavior. If they don't, then probably they are not true. Even if you believe that you believe in something, but it doesn't affect your behavior, it's probably a false belief, a pretense. For some reason you pretend, even to yourself, that you have that belief. Maybe for safety.
Michelangelo пишет: 17 фев 2020, 14:30 Maybe my belief is that I don't have to believe in anything sincerely and just have to doubts all beliefs?
I think you have at least one belief: that we shouldn't change our beliefs. Maybe you had some other belief in the past but then it collapsed, and since you believe that you shouldn't change your beliefs, you remain without any beliefs. Or maybe you think that if one belief failed, then others will fail too, so it's pointless to search for a new one. They are all unreliable.
Michelangelo пишет: 17 фев 2020, 14:30 Why those who believe in Life on Heaven want to give birth to children and then wish them to die to go to the Heavens? Isn't it a weird belief?
But didn't God order Adam and Eve to be fruitful and to multiply and to populate the Earth?
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#72

Сообщение the Troll »

Yes, he did but it was before their mortal sin. After that everything went wrong.

Did you read "Paradise Lost" by John Milton?
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#73

Сообщение acapnotic »

No, I read that story in the Bible. But whatever went wrong, the order wasn't cancelled, was it?
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#74

Сообщение Michelangelo »

acapnotic пишет: 20 фев 2020, 17:44 But didn't God order Adam and Eve to be fruitful and to multiply and to populate the Earth?
Yes, he didn't.
He order that to those half-humans which he created on the 6th day. Adam and Eve - those were special exemplars for pleasure of God and he put them into Eden to enjoy them, not to let them multiply.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
The above is the beginning of Genesis. As you can see there was not a word about Adam an Eve at the beginning.
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#75

Сообщение the Troll »

The order wasn't cancelled, you are right. I think the intent was to increase suffering of sinful fools.
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