Разводка for. It's absolutely crucial for you to help me

Обсуждение вопросов, нюансов и тонкостей грамматики английского языка любого уровня.

Модератор: zymbronia

Роман Молти
Сообщения: 885
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 17:57
Благодарил (а): 301 раз
Поблагодарили: 478 раз

#1

Сообщение Роман Молти »

Вот в конце своих видео Пол Джозеф Уотсон говорит такое

1)
It's absolutely crucial for you to help me fight the war on free speech by supporting me via Subscribe Star
У меня опять ощущения, что эта разводка замутняет предложение. Crucial для кого? Из контекста понятно, но само по себе предложение двусмысленное. У Свона есть похожий по логике и структуре пример
It’s important for the meeting to start at eight.
Как мне хочется отредактировать
It's absolutely crucial that you help me fight the war on free speech by supporting me via Subscribe Star
2)
Вчерашнее предложение для меня тоже немного странноватое. По написанию 'characterisation' предполагаю, что британец писал.
For them to actively like each other and stay together requires such a change in characterisation that I don't really know if I find that well, acceptable, canonwhore that I am.
Почему оно для меня странноватое? Я не вижу особой связи. Чтобы героям нравится друг другу, нужно (кому нужно?) изменение образа. Образ создает автор, он управляет героями, поэтому мне хочется отредактировать так
To have them actively like each other and stay together would require such a change in characterisation that I don't really know if I find that well, acceptable, canonwhore that I am.
3)
Мне начало казаться, что это британские примочки. Используется конструкция, и только по контексту читается, к чему она она вообще относится.

Но вот сегодня с самого утра я услышал от американца по ТВ примерно такое (интересующая структура сохранена)
For her to say such things demonstrates how unhinged she is.
Для кого демонстрирует, для нее (for her) или для нас? По контексту все понятно, но само предложение для меня странновато.

Как бы я отредактивал:
(The fact) that she says (should/would say) such things demonstrates how unhinged she is.
4) А вот это предложение с разводкой мне почему-то не кажется странным
You'll need a team of competent employees for things to run smoothly in your company.
Последний раз редактировалось Роман Молти 22 окт 2019, 16:47, всего редактировалось 2 раза.
Роман Молти
Сообщения: 885
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 17:57
Благодарил (а): 301 раз
Поблагодарили: 478 раз

#2

Сообщение Роман Молти »

Я раньше почему-то не обращал внимания на такие предложения. Интересно даже. По Свону все норм.
tourist
Сообщения: 1765
Зарегистрирован: 04 мар 2018, 21:25
Благодарил (а): 249 раз
Поблагодарили: 865 раз

#3

Сообщение tourist »

Роман Молти,
off topic:
I've been wondering why do you keep bringing up these obscure grammar issues?
- Are you into linguistics generally?
- Is English grammar your hobby?
- none of my business? )
- all of the above?
Thanks.

I wouldn't ask anyone else this question.
Роман Молти
Сообщения: 885
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 17:57
Благодарил (а): 301 раз
Поблагодарили: 478 раз

#4

Сообщение Роман Молти »

tourist, I would say it's my hobby. My background has nothing to do with linguistics. Nor do I plan to study it in the future.
Mountbatten
Сообщения: 1072
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 17:55
Благодарил (а): 135 раз
Поблагодарили: 590 раз

#5

Сообщение Mountbatten »

Роман Молти, это инфинитивный оборот. В любой грамматике в теме Инфинитив найдёте. С объяснениями и примерами.
Аватара пользователя
Yety
Сообщения: 11163
Зарегистрирован: 28 фев 2018, 23:44
Благодарил (а): 3371 раз
Поблагодарили: 5387 раз

#6

Сообщение Yety »

Роман Молти пишет: 22 окт 2019, 16:34 For her to say such things demonstrates how unhinged she is.
Для кого демонстрирует, для нее (for her) или для нас? По контексту все понятно, но само предложение для меня странновато.

Как бы я отредактировал:
(The fact) that she says (should/would say) such things demonstrates how unhinged she is.
Это и есть одно и то же - не редактура, а раскрытие грамматического смысла структуры.
For здесь десемантизируется и не обозначает "для". Поэтому - "демонстрирует [всем вообще (и мне в том числе)]", а не для кого-то. А for здесь для того, чтобы ввести исполнителя описываемого действия; с таким же успехом мог быть какой-нибудь другой предлог, но уж как сложилось.) Можно ещё заменить на какой-нибудь другой глагол, который, в отличие от demonstrates, никак бы не клеился с for: For her to say such things strikes as pretty self-damaging.

For her to say such things = Her saying such things = (The fact) that she says//should/would say such things
Снова, это такое развёрнутое подлежащее:
{She says such things} - that demonstrates = {For her to say such things} demonstrates
Роман Молти пишет: 22 окт 2019, 16:34 4) А вот это предложение с разводкой мне почему-то не кажется странным
You'll need a team of competent employees for things to run smoothly in your company.
Потому что здесь оборот в роли дополнения, а не подлежащего.
Последний раз редактировалось JamesTheBond 23 окт 2019, 12:07, всего редактировалось 1 раз.
Причина: Просьба автора
Аватара пользователя
Yety
Сообщения: 11163
Зарегистрирован: 28 фев 2018, 23:44
Благодарил (а): 3371 раз
Поблагодарили: 5387 раз

#7

Сообщение Yety »

... в роли обстоятельства, конечно же.
Короче, второстепенного члена предложения.
Easy-Breezy English
Сообщения: 4293
Зарегистрирован: 22 мар 2019, 17:15
Благодарил (а): 813 раз
Поблагодарили: 2862 раза

#8

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

Роман Молти пишет: 22 окт 2019, 16:34 It's absolutely crucial for you to help me fight the war on free speech
And what does this dude have against free speech exactly? )

Куда более забавная двусмысленность, кмк.
Or is he for real?
Роман Молти
Сообщения: 885
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 17:57
Благодарил (а): 301 раз
Поблагодарили: 478 раз

#9

Сообщение Роман Молти »

Easy-Breezy English, The meaning is ambiguous. By 'fight' he meant 'counteract'. This is another rabbit hole we could plunge into.

Do you see anything wrong with the sentence apart from that? Is it something you hear often? When I saw this kind of sentence endorsed by Swan, I thought I was going crazy because it seemed to come from an alternative universe. If everything is alright with my sanity, I'll just have to learn to live with this grammatical abomination :)
Роман Молти
Сообщения: 885
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 17:57
Благодарил (а): 301 раз
Поблагодарили: 478 раз

#10

Сообщение Роман Молти »

Yety,
Понимаете в чем дело. Я привык видеть предложения с for, где части относятся либо одному лицу, либо между ними есть логическая связь. Например,
For her to say such things is utterly inappropriate -- OK

Даже в таких предложениях Свона есть логическая связь, ибо они гармонично переделываются на предложения с if
For us to fail now would be a disaster.
For her to lose the election would make me very happy.
However, it is more common for a structure with preparatory it to be used (113.4 above).
It would make me very happy for her to lose the election.
А вот это предложение первое из данного поста
It's absolutely crucial for you to help me fight the war on free speech by supporting me via Subscribe Star
похоже на такое, хотя и не одно и то же
be for someone to do something
to be someone’s right, responsibility, or duty to do something
It’s not for me to decide whether you should quit your job.
She wouldn’t tell me; she said it was for me to figure out.

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dic ... -something
Аватара пользователя
Yety
Сообщения: 11163
Зарегистрирован: 28 фев 2018, 23:44
Благодарил (а): 3371 раз
Поблагодарили: 5387 раз

#11

Сообщение Yety »

Роман Молти пишет: 23 окт 2019, 10:15 Даже в таких предложениях Свона есть логическая связь, ибо они гармонично переделываются на предложения с it
...
А вот это предложение первое из данного поста
It's absolutely crucial for you to help me fight the war on free speech by supporting me via Subscribe Star
похоже на такое, хотя и не одно и то же
Так и оно допускает переделку в предложение без it:
For you to help me is absolutely crucial.
Никакой разницы не обнаруживается.
Роман Молти пишет: 23 окт 2019, 10:15 похоже на такое, хотя и не одно и то же
be for someone to do something
to be someone’s right, responsibility, or duty to do something
It’s not for me to decide whether you should quit your job.
She wouldn’t tell me; she said it was for me to figure out.
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dic ... -something
Это как-то вообще параллельное что-то -идиома, похожая на то, как работает it's up to you to do something.
За это сообщение автора Yety поблагодарил:
Роман Молти
Роман Молти
Сообщения: 885
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 17:57
Благодарил (а): 301 раз
Поблагодарили: 478 раз

#12

Сообщение Роман Молти »

Yety, This cycle of engagement is not over until Easy-Breezy wields her linguistic authority to issue an ex-cathedra pronouncement on the validity of this structure. Once it's done, the matter can be considered settled :)

Ладно, хорошо. Похоже дело в моем восприятии и с предложениями все более чем ок.
Последний раз редактировалось Роман Молти 23 окт 2019, 11:12, всего редактировалось 1 раз.
За это сообщение автора Роман Молти поблагодарил:
Yety
Аватара пользователя
acapnotic
Сообщения: 3912
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 07:49
Благодарил (а): 279 раз
Поблагодарили: 922 раза

#13

Сообщение acapnotic »

Free speechПоказать
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 23 окт 2019, 09:20 And what does this dude have against free speech exactly? )
A lot of dudes have been against free speech, and they all must have had their reasons. Wouldn't you personally prefer nice speech to free in 99% of cases? Do you really care what 7 billion people really think about you? Maybe you are much better not knowing that. ;)

Freedom of speech, like any other freedom, isn't free. Someone always pays for it. Maybe this dude thinks it's too costly. Maybe he would much prefer other people to keep their silly ideas to themselves and just obey the rules. Those rules exist for a reason. If free speech were really all that beneficial for society, it would have been free for ages. But no, there have always been rules for what you should and shouldn't say. People, most of them, just don't want to pay for your freedom of speech. They want you to be nice or at least polite, or go to hell and leave them alone. :)
Easy-Breezy English
Сообщения: 4293
Зарегистрирован: 22 мар 2019, 17:15
Благодарил (а): 813 раз
Поблагодарили: 2862 раза

#14

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

Роман Молти пишет: 23 окт 2019, 10:07 This is another rabbit hole we could plunge into.
Thanks, but I'll abstain. ))
Do you see anything wrong with the sentence apart from that?
Not really.
Is it something you hear often?
Yes, it is.

Strictly speaking, this sentence is ambiguous, of course.

It's absolutely crucial for you to help me fight the war on free speech by supporting me via Subscribe Star:
(1) For you to help me fight the war on free speech is absolutely crucial. I'll fail without you.
(2) To help me fight the war on free speech is absolutely crucial for you. It's important for your political career.


However, in reality this technical ambiguity is hardly ever an issue.

Let's take a couple of your examples:

You'll need a team of competent employees for things to run smoothly in your company.
It's unlikely that a team of competent employees will do the running, so no ambiguity here.

For her to lose the election would make me very happy.
The second part of the sentence obviously refers to me and how I feel, so no problem here either.

In speech this problem is very easily avoided by stress and intonation. This would be the case for your original sentence.
Последний раз редактировалось Easy-Breezy English 23 окт 2019, 14:24, всего редактировалось 1 раз.
За это сообщение автора Easy-Breezy English поблагодарили (всего 2):
Yety, Роман Молти
Easy-Breezy English
Сообщения: 4293
Зарегистрирован: 22 мар 2019, 17:15
Благодарил (а): 813 раз
Поблагодарили: 2862 раза

#15

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

Роман Молти пишет: 23 окт 2019, 10:15 For her to say such things is utterly inappropriate -- OK
Actually, this is ambiguous, too.

Is her saying such things inappropriate? Or is it something she won't tolerate?
За это сообщение автора Easy-Breezy English поблагодарил:
Yety
Аватара пользователя
Yety
Сообщения: 11163
Зарегистрирован: 28 фев 2018, 23:44
Благодарил (а): 3371 раз
Поблагодарили: 5387 раз

#16

Сообщение Yety »

Easy-Breezy English пишет: 23 окт 2019, 14:21 Or is it something she won't tolerate?
I guess there should be a comma after For her in that case, reflecting the prosody and the meaning.
Easy-Breezy English
Сообщения: 4293
Зарегистрирован: 22 мар 2019, 17:15
Благодарил (а): 813 раз
Поблагодарили: 2862 раза

#17

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

Yety пишет: 23 окт 2019, 14:33 I guess there should be a comma after For her in that case, reflecting the prosody and the meaning.
Right, that would definitely help. However, English punctuation is notoriously авторская. ))
Аватара пользователя
Yety
Сообщения: 11163
Зарегистрирован: 28 фев 2018, 23:44
Благодарил (а): 3371 раз
Поблагодарили: 5387 раз

#18

Сообщение Yety »

Easy-Breezy English пишет: 23 окт 2019, 14:40 notoriously авторская. ))
Well, yes, of course, but...
In this particular example it doesn't seem to be a matter of choice or an author's preference - if the author wants to be understood correctly, of course.
The comma here helps distinguish the two very different messages, and thus cannot be omitted without compromising comprehension.
The case here is of "казнить нельзя помиловать"* east shoots and leaves rather than of the optional comma after some modifier (Early in spring{,} they emerge from their wintertime slumber to warm their bodies, feed and reproduce.)

*There are some cool equivalents of this phrase in English from around the net:
the importance of being 'punctual':)Показать
"Refrain not to kill King Edward is right.”
The following advice of Bishop Orleton to Gourney and Maltravers in 1327 is an excellent example of the importance of punctuation:
—Edwardum occidere nolite timere bonum est —“Refrain not to kill King Edward is right.”
If the point is placed after the first word, the sentence reads, “Not to kill the king is right;” but if after the second word, the direction becomes, “Refrain not; to kill the king is right.”
An English professor wrote the words "A woman without her man is nothing" on the blackboard and asked his students to punctuate it correctly.
All of the males in the class wrote: "A woman, without her man, is nothing."
All the females in the class wrote: "A woman: without her, man is nothing."
Dear John:
I want a man who knows what love is all about. You are generous, kind, thoughtful. People who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior. You have ruined me for other men. I yearn for you. I have no feelings whatsoever when we're apart. I can be forever happy--will you let me be yours?
Gloria

Dear John:
I want a man who knows what love is. All about you are generous, kind, thoughtful people, who are not like you. Admit to being useless and inferior. You have ruined me. For other men, I yearn. For you, I have no feelings whatsoever. When we're apart, I can be forever happy. Will you let me be?
Yours,
Gloria
Execute him(,) we should not(,) pardon him!
Something similar in Spanish пишет: There was a battle in X kingdom and the King sent a note to the battlefield. At that time he had to rely on a scribe to convey his message. The King's message was as follows:
"Matadle NO,
dejadle vivir."
The scribe wrote:
"Matadle, NO dejadle vivir".
http://www.proz.com/post/298431

IN English this would be "kill him not let him live", which could be either:
Kill him not! Let him live!
or:
Kill him, not let him live!
The construction "Kill him not!" is good but archaic English. Though it would not be used nowadays, there are many examples of it in the King James version of the Bible (17th Century).
To say nothing of the Oxford comma:
"I would like to thank my parents, Mother Theresa, and the Pope."
"I would like to thank my parents, Mother Theresa and the Pope."
За это сообщение автора Yety поблагодарили (всего 2):
Easy-Breezy English, gavenkoa
bedazzled
Сообщения: 13
Зарегистрирован: 07 авг 2019, 00:07
Благодарил (а): 1 раз
Поблагодарили: 7 раз

#19

Сообщение bedazzled »

The elephant in the room here is that you watch far-right grifters such as Paul Joseph Watson. You can still get help. It's not too late.
Easy-Breezy English
Сообщения: 4293
Зарегистрирован: 22 мар 2019, 17:15
Благодарил (а): 813 раз
Поблагодарили: 2862 раза

#20

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

СпойлерПоказать
acapnotic пишет: 23 окт 2019, 11:07 A lot of dudes have been against free speech, and they all must have had their reasons.
...those reasons being widely diverse, so I wouldn't necessarily lump them all together.
Do you really care what 7 billion people really think about you?
Never realized my glorious personality was at the crux of the free speech issue. ))
Isn't free speech an excellent way to sift through those seven billion, though?
Makes it all that much easier to decide who I'm sending to hell on the spot (using your parlance) and who can hang out until further notice. ))
Freedom of speech, like any other freedom, isn't free.
Neither is unfreedom of speech. Everything has a price and a flip side.
Роман Молти
Сообщения: 885
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 17:57
Благодарил (а): 301 раз
Поблагодарили: 478 раз

#21

Сообщение Роман Молти »

bedazzled, I'm doing just fine. The last thing I need is supposed help from far-left grifters mind-readers and self-proclaimed saviors who assume people's motives for watching this type of content. Hard pass.
You have no business whatsoever policing what other people should watch. The way you presented this link looks patronizing. So do me a favor and get bent.
За это сообщение автора Роман Молти поблагодарил:
tourist
Аватара пользователя
acapnotic
Сообщения: 3912
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 07:49
Благодарил (а): 279 раз
Поблагодарили: 922 раза

#22

Сообщение acapnotic »

СпойлерПоказать
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 23 окт 2019, 17:12 Isn't free speech an excellent way to sift through those seven billion, though?
Makes it all that much easier to decide who I'm sending to hell on the spot (using your parlance)
Those who are simple enough to take it seriously? :)
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 23 окт 2019, 17:12 and who can hang out until further notice. ))
Those who are a bit more clever and talk nicely no matter what? :)
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 23 окт 2019, 17:12 Neither is unfreedom of speech. Everything has a price and a flip side.
But it tells by its very name that it isn't free. Isn't it more honest? ;)
Easy-Breezy English
Сообщения: 4293
Зарегистрирован: 22 мар 2019, 17:15
Благодарил (а): 813 раз
Поблагодарили: 2862 раза

#23

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

СпойлерПоказать
acapnotic пишет: 24 окт 2019, 10:26 Those who are a bit more clever and talk nicely no matter what? :)
It appears to me that the right to free speech presupposes a certain degree of common sense in those who wish to exercise the former.
If you desire to express yourself freely by declaring to the cops that you have a loaded weapon in your pocket, well, let natural selection take its course.
Anyway you cut it, free speech looks like quite a functional tool, don't you think? :-)
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 23 окт 2019, 17:12 Neither is unfreedom of speech. Everything has a price and a flip side.
But it tells by its very name that it isn't free. Isn't it more honest? ;)
I'm using the term unfreedom of speech in the spirit of free speech. :-) In a more institutionalized lingo this would be called safety and security most likely. You tell me what's more honest. :-))

And where do YOU stand on the issue, anyway?
Аватара пользователя
acapnotic
Сообщения: 3912
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 07:49
Благодарил (а): 279 раз
Поблагодарили: 922 раза

#24

Сообщение acapnotic »

СпойлерПоказать
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 24 окт 2019, 14:18 And where do YOU stand on the issue, anyway?
Just because we can speak doesn't mean we should. :)
За это сообщение автора acapnotic поблагодарил:
Easy-Breezy English
Easy-Breezy English
Сообщения: 4293
Зарегистрирован: 22 мар 2019, 17:15
Благодарил (а): 813 раз
Поблагодарили: 2862 раза

#25

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

СпойлерПоказать
acapnotic пишет: 24 окт 2019, 15:24
Easy-Breezy English пишет: 24 окт 2019, 14:18 And where do YOU stand on the issue, anyway?
Just because we can speak doesn't mean we should. :)
LOL!
This is a seriously great answer. ))
Ответить

Вернуться в «Грамматика»