Переход от обучения к практике языка ... может не спешить?

Как начать изучать язык с нуля, какой метод изучения языка выбрать, получить рекомендации по самостоятельному изучению языка, обсудить другие вопросы.

Модератор: zymbronia

deaptor
Сообщения: 289
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 23:09
Благодарил (а): 43 раза
Поблагодарили: 193 раза

#26

Сообщение deaptor »

Opt пишет: 04 авг 2019, 00:27 Нет никаких секретов кроме одного, та и тот всем известен - тупо копировать носителей.
Repeating after native speakers is a very useful exercise indeed, however, you should be able to hear the difference between sounds in the target language to do that correctly. Unfortunately many adults have a problem with that, so when they try to copy native speakers, they may just fossilize their pronunciation mistakes without noticing it.
За это сообщение автора deaptor поблагодарил:
gavenkoa
Opt
Сообщения: 5751
Зарегистрирован: 15 апр 2018, 15:03
Благодарил (а): 73 раза
Поблагодарили: 401 раз

#27

Сообщение Opt »

deaptor пишет: 05 авг 2019, 14:11 Unfortunately many adults have a problem with that, so when they try to copy native speakers, they may just fossilize their pronunciation mistakes without noticing it.
Opt пишет: 04 авг 2019, 00:27 Не, ну если совсем тугой на все уши - тогда к спецам править.
У большинства проблемы с самообучением. А я говорю о людях, которые умеют это делать.
Аватара пользователя
gavenkoa
Сообщения: 2800
Зарегистрирован: 01 мар 2018, 13:00
Благодарил (а): 3100 раз
Поблагодарили: 582 раза

#28

Сообщение gavenkoa »

deaptor пишет: 05 авг 2019, 14:11 Unfortunately many adults have a problem with that
Children also have problem but they are corrected and they aren't ashamed while adults take any correction as personal failure.

Because people are stupid selfish morons. Our race is doomed.
Easy-Breezy English
Сообщения: 4293
Зарегистрирован: 22 мар 2019, 17:15
Благодарил (а): 813 раз
Поблагодарили: 2862 раза

#29

Сообщение Easy-Breezy English »

gavenkoa пишет: 06 авг 2019, 08:18 Because people are stupid selfish morons. Our race is doomed.
Yay, that's the spirit! LOL
deaptor
Сообщения: 289
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 23:09
Благодарил (а): 43 раза
Поблагодарили: 193 раза

#30

Сообщение deaptor »

gavenkoa пишет: 06 авг 2019, 08:18 Children also have problem but they are corrected and they aren't ashamed while adults take any correction as personal failure.
Children may have problems with pronunciation, but usually they have no problem telling apart different sounds that they mispronounced. Also, in a second language, children quickly learn to differentiate new phonemes, while adults often perceive new sounds through phonemes of their native language, so they may not hear some differences, and that is a serious problem for many of them
Аватара пользователя
gavenkoa
Сообщения: 2800
Зарегистрирован: 01 мар 2018, 13:00
Благодарил (а): 3100 раз
Поблагодарили: 582 раза

#31

Сообщение gavenkoa »

deaptor пишет: 06 авг 2019, 13:21 so they may not hear some differences, and that is a serious problem for many of them
cob vs cub in GA is my today finding ))

I thought æ was the trickiest sound, I was naive ))
Аватара пользователя
acapnotic
Сообщения: 3912
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 07:49
Благодарил (а): 279 раз
Поблагодарили: 922 раза

#32

Сообщение acapnotic »

gavenkoa пишет: 06 авг 2019, 08:18 Children also have problem but they are corrected and they aren't ashamed while adults take any correction as personal failure.
On the other hand, if mistakes are not a problem to you, then correcting you will have little effect because you just don't care. You will readily agree with the correction but then go on making the same errors. Why would you bother if you are not ashamed? What would be your motivation?
Аватара пользователя
gavenkoa
Сообщения: 2800
Зарегистрирован: 01 мар 2018, 13:00
Благодарил (а): 3100 раз
Поблагодарили: 582 раза

#33

Сообщение gavenkoa »

acapnotic пишет: 06 авг 2019, 15:16 Why would you bother if you are not ashamed?
Adults are insulted by mocking to their mistake. Increased tension results into situation when you can't say more because you have a change to get slap to your face. Or other side begins a quarrel or leave a job or get divorsed ))
acapnotic пишет: 06 авг 2019, 15:16 if mistakes are not a problem to you
But it is a problem for others ((

Reason someone keeps relations with you even you have problems is that your positive side outbalance negative (you can be stupid as a log but cheap and obedient, and sometimes stupidity is welcome quality, think about puppet politicians and oligarchs).
Последний раз редактировалось gavenkoa 06 авг 2019, 17:51, всего редактировалось 5 раз.
Причина: fixed
Аватара пользователя
acapnotic
Сообщения: 3912
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 07:49
Благодарил (а): 279 раз
Поблагодарили: 922 раза

#34

Сообщение acapnotic »

gavenkoa пишет: 06 авг 2019, 17:48 Adults are insulted by mocking to their mistake.
You mean children aren't offended by mockery? Well, maybe you weren't as a child, but I don't think it's typical of children. They are in more danger of being mocked, by other children, so maybe this makes them more motivated to improve. While adults communicate with other adults, who are usually polite enough not to laugh at your mistakes in your presence. So you are less motivated.
Аватара пользователя
gavenkoa
Сообщения: 2800
Зарегистрирован: 01 мар 2018, 13:00
Благодарил (а): 3100 раз
Поблагодарили: 582 раза

#35

Сообщение gavenkoa »

acapnotic пишет: 06 авг 2019, 19:00 While adults communicate with other adults, who are usually polite enough not to laugh at your mistakes in your presence.
I add more! Adults usually are not motivated to improve others. It costs time and efforts but for what gain?

We pursue our children to achieve success and do it slowly and deliberately.

We hate to be calm with stupid cranks who can't and don't want to understand from first time. It is supposed to wash ass on their own for adults ))
deaptor
Сообщения: 289
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 23:09
Благодарил (а): 43 раза
Поблагодарили: 193 раза

#36

Сообщение deaptor »

gavenkoa пишет: 06 авг 2019, 13:33 cob vs cub in GA is my today finding ))
Confusion of /ɑ/ and /ʌ/ is very common among Russian learners of English.
gavenkoa пишет: 06 авг 2019, 13:33 I thought æ was the trickiest sound, I was naive ))
What did you find so difficult about it? Did you confuse this sound with some another sound, or did you not know how to produce it?
Аватара пользователя
gavenkoa
Сообщения: 2800
Зарегистрирован: 01 мар 2018, 13:00
Благодарил (а): 3100 раз
Поблагодарили: 582 раза

#37

Сообщение gavenkoa »

deaptor пишет: 07 авг 2019, 14:32 Did you confuse this sound with some another sound, or did you not know how to produce it?
Both. Now I see strong difference when someone says "fast" /fɑːst / fæst/ with Br or Am accent )) I mentally say - again those British hosts...
Последний раз редактировалось gavenkoa 07 авг 2019, 14:42, всего редактировалось 1 раз.
Причина: fixed
deaptor
Сообщения: 289
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 23:09
Благодарил (а): 43 раза
Поблагодарили: 193 раза

#38

Сообщение deaptor »

acapnotic пишет: 06 авг 2019, 19:00 They are in more danger of being mocked, by other children, so maybe this makes them more motivated to improve.
I am not sure that it is the case. Most children learn to speak their native language without any mockery, and even if they mispronounce something or say something incorrectly, they rarely get any negative feedback to that as long as their message is clear. And if a child has not learned to produce some sounds correctly before school, they are usually sent to a speech therapist to correct that. Personally, I don't know any single case where mockery would help.

Moreover, all neurologically typical children have very strong integrative motivation, so they subconsciously copy what they see and hear around them, especially they tend to copy people who they like. However, it is not just copying of what they hear, but some generalization of what they are exposed to. Obviously, those generalizations are not always correct. So many young children produce grammatically incorrect sentences, and they may repeat grammar mistakes for long time, despite all efforts of their parents to eliminate them. But then, after awhile, those mistakes just disappear, and they also disappear in those children who have never been corrected (provided that they get enough language exposure). So it is not clear how much of that grammar correction is really helpful for young kids.
Аватара пользователя
acapnotic
Сообщения: 3912
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 07:49
Благодарил (а): 279 раз
Поблагодарили: 922 раза

#39

Сообщение acapnotic »

deaptor пишет: 07 авг 2019, 14:53 I am not sure that it is the case. Most children learn to speak their native language without any mockery,
I thought the children mentioned by gavenkoa were those learning a foreign language, probably in a place where it was spoken by natives. Maybe I was mistaken.
deaptor
Сообщения: 289
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 23:09
Благодарил (а): 43 раза
Поблагодарили: 193 раза

#40

Сообщение deaptor »

acapnotic пишет: 07 авг 2019, 16:24 I thought the children mentioned by gavenkoa were those learning a foreign language, probably in a place where it was spoken by natives.
I don't know what gavenkoa meant, but if it was a foreign language, then it means a language learned in outside of a country where it is naturally spoken. So I don't think mockery applies here.

If we speak about second language language acquisition, usually children are driven by integrative motivation (i.e. to be like their peers). Mockery? It happens to some kids, but usually it has nothing to do with the language. Most children are pretty good at copying the target accent from the moment they start to speak.
Аватара пользователя
gavenkoa
Сообщения: 2800
Зарегистрирован: 01 мар 2018, 13:00
Благодарил (а): 3100 раз
Поблагодарили: 582 раза

#41

Сообщение gavenkoa »

deaptor пишет: 08 авг 2019, 13:10 Most children are pretty good at copying the target accent from the moment they start to speak.
I tried to correct Ukrainian/Russian "Л", "Р", "Г" of 2-3-5 year old nieces/nephews and they could say it right after some practice but it didn't stick magically. They made same mistake in unconscious speech one minute later.

I haven't tried minimal pairs for perception testing but testing of speech showed same results as for adults. I lost confidence of sound correctness after a practice with a teacher, it decreased with a time. Same as with children.

I question that adults can't pick accent. Don't they just luck an opportunity to acquire one?

My friend said he mocked Russians when visited Saint Petersburg with over exaggerated native accent after 2 weeks of staying. Similarity of Russian/Ukrainian can't just justify such fast adaptation.
Аватара пользователя
acapnotic
Сообщения: 3912
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 07:49
Благодарил (а): 279 раз
Поблагодарили: 922 раза

#42

Сообщение acapnotic »

deaptor, I meant a language foreign to the children, as opposed to their native language. Since I also mentioned that it was learned in a place where it was spoken by natives, I don't think there was any possibility of misunderstanding. If you know a better general term for a language that is not native to a person, I will be glad to learn it.
deaptor
Сообщения: 289
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 23:09
Благодарил (а): 43 раза
Поблагодарили: 193 раза

#43

Сообщение deaptor »

gavenkoa пишет: 08 авг 2019, 13:38 I tried to correct Ukrainian/Russian "Л", "Р", "Г" of 2-3-5 year old nieces/nephews and they could say it right after some practice but it didn't stick magically. They made same mistake in unconscious speech one minute later.
Just because they said once correctly, it does not mean they can use that in spontaneous speech. All speech therapists offer a lot of practice with each corrected sound to make this new habit stick. Also they usually work with a bit older children, which might be a help too.
gavenkoa пишет: 08 авг 2019, 13:38 I question that adults can't pick accent. Don't they just luck an opportunity to acquire one?
It is a tricky question, because there are many factors here, such as phonetic similarity, personal identity, nature of their interaction with native speakers, etc. However, it appears that adults have difficulties with formation of new sound categories, which children don't. You can overcome that with a deliberate training, but still other factors remain. So I don't think there's a single reason that can explain all cases.
deaptor
Сообщения: 289
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 23:09
Благодарил (а): 43 раза
Поблагодарили: 193 раза

#44

Сообщение deaptor »

acapnotic пишет: 08 авг 2019, 13:45 Since I also mentioned that it was learned in a place where it was spoken by natives, I don't think there was any possibility of misunderstanding.
We usually use "a second language" to describe a language learned in the country where it is naturally spoken, while the term "foreign language" is mostly reserved for the language learned outside of the natural language environment.
acapnotic пишет: 08 авг 2019, 13:45 If you know a better general term for a language that is not native to a person, I will be glad to learn it.
Why? You can always say "a non-native language" if it is what you want to say. However, that leads to the question what is a native language anyway? Some people define it as a language that the child acquired first, but others tend to think about it as one's dominant language. In my opinion, the former definition is problematic, because there are people who have completely lost their first language. (It often happens to children adopted under age 10.) So how can one be a native speaker of the language, which they can't speak all? It makes no sense to me.
Аватара пользователя
gavenkoa
Сообщения: 2800
Зарегистрирован: 01 мар 2018, 13:00
Благодарил (а): 3100 раз
Поблагодарили: 582 раза

#45

Сообщение gavenkoa »

deaptor пишет: 08 авг 2019, 15:05 However, it appears that adults have difficulties with formation of new sound categories
That's true. I tried to overcome particular difficulties and some remain.

I understand and percept difference between ɛ / æ but I still have problems to pronounce them differently in certain context, like exp*a*nsive exp*e*nsive.

And sounds like ʊ ʌ remain unconscious, I get only uː and ɑː (GA).

I don't get that "look" and "Luke" don't rhyme ))
Последний раз редактировалось gavenkoa 08 авг 2019, 15:50, всего редактировалось 1 раз.
Причина: fix
Аватара пользователя
acapnotic
Сообщения: 3912
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 07:49
Благодарил (а): 279 раз
Поблагодарили: 922 раза

#46

Сообщение acapnotic »

deaptor пишет: 08 авг 2019, 15:22 We usually use "a second language" to describe a language learned in the country where it is naturally spoken
So, you can have several second languages if you learned them where they are spoken?
deaptor
Сообщения: 289
Зарегистрирован: 02 мар 2018, 23:09
Благодарил (а): 43 раза
Поблагодарили: 193 раза

#47

Сообщение deaptor »

acapnotic пишет: 08 авг 2019, 15:54 So, you can have several second languages if you learned them where they are spoken?
Yes, in fact, many people use "second language" even more broadly to denote any language learned after the first one. It is similar how a secondhand is used to described any used good whether it changed hands once or more times.
За это сообщение автора deaptor поблагодарил:
gavenkoa
Аватара пользователя
gavenkoa
Сообщения: 2800
Зарегистрирован: 01 мар 2018, 13:00
Благодарил (а): 3100 раз
Поблагодарили: 582 раза

#48

Сообщение gavenkoa »

deaptor пишет: 08 авг 2019, 17:32 "second language"
L2 as oppoused to L1 (native).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-la ... cquisition
Последний раз редактировалось gavenkoa 10 авг 2019, 16:55, всего редактировалось 1 раз.
Причина: fixed
Ответить
  • Похожие темы
    Ответы
    Просмотры
    Последнее сообщение

Вернуться в «Основной форум об изучении английского языка»