Международные экзамены и сертификаты: показатель уровня знаний или профанация?

Коммуникативная и другие методики преподавания английского языка, преподавание разным возрастным категориям, обсуждение и выбор учебников, обмен опытом.

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Daniil Vladimirovich
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#1

Сообщение Daniil Vladimirovich »

Дорогие коллеги, как вы считаете, действительно ли сертификат об успешной сдачи какого-либо экзамена свидетельствует об уровне кандидата? Или же элементарное "натаскивание" и все, дело в шляпе. Интересно услышать ваше мнение.
the Tempter
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#2

Сообщение the Tempter »

to some extent
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#3

Сообщение Devinette »

А Вы сдайте СРЕ и узнаете :-)
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Juliemiracle
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#4

Сообщение Juliemiracle »

Daniil Vladimirovich пишет: 02 май 2019, 08:39 Или же элементарное "натаскивание" и все, дело в шляпе.
It doesn't work like that because you don't have the exact cards/questions like at a driving test (written part). You can get any text, any listening, any speaking topic, you name it.
Of course, if you know the format, you're 'primed' for the exam and are bound to have better results. But in the end, it all boils down to your level of English. I've never heard of A2 Ss (no matter how well they knew the format) who passed a B2 exam successfully.
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#5

Сообщение Eager Beaver »

Juliemiracle пишет: 02 май 2019, 16:55 I've never heard of A2 Ss (no matter how well they knew the format) who passed a B2 exam successfully.
I was recently introduced to a girl who has IELTS 7 overall but still mixes up tenses and prepositions, invents non-existent grammar and vocabulary on the fly, makes a tremendous number of errors when speaking, like "I is" and "She runned". To make matters worse, she speaks quickly and with a heavy Slavic accent. Still wondering how she got her band 7.
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#6

Сообщение Juliemiracle »

Eager Beaver,
1) have you seen her certificate?
2) IELTS doesn't focus so much on UoE as, say, FCE or CAE, so there are some lifehacks to get a higher grade;
3) finally, (and that's the key & most plausible thing) knowledgeable people never look at the overall score only because it may go sth like this: listening 9, reading 9, speaking 4,5, writing 4,5 = overall 7. As you can see, speaking and writing here are somewhere at the end of Pre-Intermediate, while the receptive skills are top-notch.
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#7

Сообщение Eager Beaver »

Juliemiracle,
I didn't see the certificate - you don't normally take it with you wherever you go, do you? However, I heard her teacher (the one who introduced us) mention the band, and he did see the results.

As for L9R9 and S4.5W4.5, this is extremely hard to believe. 4.5 is too big a gap - you won't get a 9 in R and L if you can barely write or speak. You are just bound to miss something.
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Juliemiracle
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#8

Сообщение Juliemiracle »

Eager Beaver пишет: 02 май 2019, 17:37 As for L9R9 and S4.5W4.5, this is extremely hard to believe. 4.5 is too big a gap - you won't get a 9 in R and L if you can barely write or speak. You are just bound to miss something.
Live and learn :) There are ppl who have a yawning gap betweeen their receptive and productive skills. OK, it could be 8,5 + 8,5 + 5 + 5 = 7. You get the idea.
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#9

Сообщение Juliemiracle »

Eager Beaver,
btw, teachers utterly hate such Ss (I'm kidding, but...) because their vocab and passive knowledge of grammar is at least advanced, they do grammar tests immaculately; yet, when they open their mouths, you want to crawl up a lamp post. And it's really hard to find some teaching materials for them as, basically, to practise speaking & writing we have to start with elementary/pre-int activities, which they resent. "It's too easy, it's boring, I know all the words/grammar here." Sometimes the ego is hurt so much that such a person can't be helped and you just have to go your separate ways.
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Eager Beaver
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#10

Сообщение Eager Beaver »

Juliemiracle пишет: 02 май 2019, 17:41 You get the idea.
I do but this is still incredible. In my estimation, her speaking level was "fluent=fast elementary". To get a 7, she'd need nines in other sections. And you can't get a nine if you don't know anything, literally: neither words, nor grammar. It doesn't add up.
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#11

Сообщение Juliemiracle »

Eager Beaver,
let's look at the speaking criteria https://www.ielts.org/-/media/pdfs/spea ... ashx?la=en You can get 6+6+4+4 = 5. Just read the descriptors. And a person's receptive knowledge desn't have to be at the same level. It's like figure skating: you may know all the theory (all those axels etc) but be barely able to skate in practice.
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#12

Сообщение Eager Beaver »

Juliemiracle пишет: 02 май 2019, 17:46 btw, teachers utterly hate such Ss (I'm kidding, but...) because their vocab and passive knowledge of grammar is at least advanced, they do grammr tests immaculately; yet, when they open their mouths, you want to crawl up a lamp post. And it's really hard to find some teaching materials for them as, basically, to practise speaking & writing we have to start with elementary/pre-int activities, which they resent. "It's too easy, it's boring, I know all the words/grammar here." Sometimes the ego is hurt so much that such a person can't be helped and you just have to go your separate ways.
This I can understand.
It usually pays off to explain to such students that knowledge and skills don't go hand in hand and if you let any skill lag behind, you have to go back a level or two to catch up. I had a similar problem with my teacher. I do well in tests, but I neglected working on speaking specifically for almost two years. However, my teacher suggested that we use an Advanced textbook, which was too advanced to my liking. It's no use trying to do the heavy lifting if 5 kg barbells are way beyond your capacity. Of course, I can speak - and quite a few native speakers say that I do it well - but it's rather difficult for me to elaborate on an anecdote or come up with a detailed and precise example - in a coherent and fluent manner. But it seems that less advanced prep yields better results.
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#13

Сообщение Eager Beaver »

Juliemiracle пишет: 02 май 2019, 17:53 And a person's receptive knowledge desn't have to be at the same level. It's like figure skating: you may know all the theory (all those axels etc) but be barely able to skate in practice.
They don't have to be, but still 5- or 6-point gaps are unbelievable. 3-4 in speaking/writing means that there is just not enough knowledge to ace the receptive sections.
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#14

Сообщение Purple »

судя по своим результатам и результатам моих студентов, ielts и PET-CAE достаточно объективны. хотя, фактор удачи присутствует, конечно, тоже. в этом январе моя студентка с разницей в неделю сдавала ielts general & academic - 6.5 и 7.0 соответственно (хотя говорят, что для сдачи general на такой же band, как и академик, нужно больше правильных ответов..). и если ielts действителен 2 года, то сертификаты кэмбриджского свита "пожизненные", и это, конечно, вызывает определенные сомнения, особенно, если прошло уже много лет с момента их получения.
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#15

Сообщение Juliemiracle »

Eager Beaver пишет: 02 май 2019, 18:05 It usually pays off to explain to such students that knowledge and skills don't go hand in hand and if you let any skill lag behind, you have to go back a level or two to catch up.
Some ppl are beyond the reach of reason, unfortunately. Or rather, they can't really face the bitter truth: they're too accustomed to considering themselves advanced to admit that some of their skills are a far cry from that.
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#16

Сообщение Eager Beaver »

Juliemiracle пишет: 02 май 2019, 18:09 Some ppl are beyond the reach of reason, unfortunately. Or rather, they can't really face the bitter truth: they're too accustomed to considering themselves advanced to admit that some of their skills are a far cry from that.
Then it's better to part ways, indeed.
There is still a chance these people will come to understand that they are not so advanced as they think they are. But this will require a reality check through the skull, demeaning and humiliating.
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#17

Сообщение EngTutorMarina »

Eager Beaver,
Eager Beaver пишет: 02 май 2019, 17:05
Juliemiracle пишет: 02 май 2019, 16:55 I've never heard of A2 Ss (no matter how well they knew the format) who passed a B2 exam successfully.
I was recently introduced to a girl who has IELTS 7 overall but still mixes up tenses and prepositions, invents non-existent grammar and vocabulary on the fly, makes a tremendous number of errors when speaking, like "I is" and "She runned". To make matters worse, she speaks quickly and with a heavy Slavic accent. Still wondering how she got her band 7.
You mix up tenses either. Sorry.
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#18

Сообщение Eager Beaver »

EngTutorMarina пишет: 02 май 2019, 20:13 You mix up tenses either. Sorry.
Wow! This is a real eye-opener. What would I do without your insightful comment, full of specific examples and corrections?

P.S. When trying to show off your grammatical superiority, at least make sure your own posts are flawless. EITHER.
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#19

Сообщение Juliemiracle »

EngTutorMarina пишет: 02 май 2019, 20:13 You mix up tenses either. Sorry.
Do you mean that this part should be in the Present Perfect?
Eager Beaver пишет: 02 май 2019, 17:05 I was recently introduced to a girl who has IELTS 7 overall but still mixes up tenses and prepositions
Recently is quite OK in the Past Simple, especially in AmE (which Eager Beaver sticks to if I'm not mistaken).
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions ... t-and-past
Otherwise, I can't imagine what other 'mixed-up tenses' you've spotted.
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#20

Сообщение Eager Beaver »

Juliemiracle пишет: 03 май 2019, 11:47 Otherwise, I can't imagine what other 'mixed-up tenses' you've spotted.
What I meant is she used forms like "have doing" instead of "have done" or "have been doing".
I'm pretty sure I don't do this anymore. Nevertheless, I'm OK with making occasional mistakes (after all, English is not my mother tongue). Also, I welcome specific corrections and explanations as corrective feedback is the best way to improve.
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#21

Сообщение EngTutorMarina »

Juliemiracle,

От меня—спасибо, приму к сведению другие возможные случаи употребления времён с recently.

Жду когда мой любимый американец проснётся. Хочу обсудить с высокообразованным носителем статью, на которую вы мне указали) Отпишусь сразу.
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#22

Сообщение Juliemiracle »

EngTutorMarina,
ok. But if we find such examples in dictionaries, e.g. here https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dic ... h/recently (and it's a BrE version) or here https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/recently, that surely means that it can't be wrong.
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#23

Сообщение Juliemiracle »

EngTutorMarina,
curiously, 'lately' which is very close in meaning to 'recently' seems to be much more Perfect-bound: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/lately
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#24

Сообщение tourist »

Eager Beaver,
Eager Beaver пишет: 02 май 2019, 18:08 Of course, I can speak - and quite a few native speakers say that I do it well
for all we know, you may (or may not) speak well.
But I wouldn't rely on a native's opinion as the ultimate proof of my abilities.
Westerners in general are inherently polite, sometimes to a fault.
They instinctively want to make you feel good often to your detriment.
Just be careful with their compliments and excessive, often insincere praise )
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#25

Сообщение Eager Beaver »

Much as I hate to repeat myself...
You choose a tense based on what you want to say (on how you see the situation) and not on a specific "tense marker". These markers help a bit if you've only just set out to study English, but do more harm in the long run.
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