Austrian girl with CPE A (Speaking - 219)

[Eager Beaver]

From where I'm standing, this is very close to native-like fluency! Can't get my head around why she got a B for the Speaking part of the test.

[Eager Beaver]

Nelli, paveltashkinov, September
How does this compare to your experience of taking the exam? Do you speak this well or even better, too?

I'm just puzzled as I've watched a couple of videos from Cambridge (like this) and the participants usually speak a lot worse and receive comments like "demonstrates Proficiency level grammar, vocab, interactive ability, etc.". Wonder what A-level speaking should look (or sound) like...

[Strange Quark]

Посмотрите как она говорила в 2012. Зачем она сдавала CPE?

[Zlatko_Berrin]

I'm just puzzled as I've watched a couple of videos from Cambridge (like this) and the participants usually speak a lot worse and receive comments like "demonstrates Proficiency level grammar, vocab, interactive ability, etc.". Wonder what A-level speaking should look (or sound) like...

I couldn't agree more. After watching videos like that one, I thought they had at most Upper-intermediate level. Maybe, such videos are ... not real in some way, but just to show the procedure of taking the exam. Then examiner's comments are weird, though.

[well well well]

Then examiner's comments are weird, though.

I believe I missed that part. When does she mention it?

I'd like to share a few thoughts if I may) I'm going to start with a disclaimer: nothing I write is the honest truth but merely my uninformed opinion.

So first, about that part when she says the examinees are supposed to cram as many fancy words, complex grammar and idioms as possible into their speaking, and that we don't speak the way the CPE requires. I personally believe that the exam doesn't test the way we speak on a daily basis. I'll have to mention Anastasia's name in vain once again and bring up that research she wrote about in her blog, about native speech and speaking exams -- they are not the same. Native-like fluency doesn't guarantee good grades. Consequently, try as you might to sound like a native, make same mistakes -- nobody is going to be impressed by that if you don't know the language well enough to speak without said mistakes.

This brings me to my next point -- non-natives are required to speak better than natives at high level exams. Why? Because... Oh god, for so many reasons! Natives don't do speaking exams, do they? Why? Because all they know is the language. A non-native is required to know much more than that. We must know grammar, vocabulary, phrasal verbs, idioms... Not all natives know those things. How many of this forum's goers passed the Russian state exam with flying colours? There's more to what I'm trying to say, I'll elaborate in my next post)

Before I go, I'd like to say something else about " cramming" complex structures into one's speech at the exam. A proficient speaker uses those without being compelled. Not because he or she must, but because they just come in handy in expressing their thoughts and opinions. Again a nod to something posted on this forum earlier: Jordan Peterson. In a video we've seen him using complex vocabulary (or was it an idiom?) during the first minute. He didn't have to, he wasn't taking a proficiency exam. He just talks this way. I believe that's what is required from the takers of the CPE -- speaking naturally AND proficiently.

Bis später!🙂

[Zlatko_Berrin]

I believe I missed that part. When does she mention it?

If you're talking about the girl from the first video here, then she doesn't mention it at all. //

Then examiner's comments are weird, though.

relates to Eager Beaver's

comments like "demonstrates Proficiency level grammar, vocab, interactive ability, etc."

//
Or it's just me getting you wrong?))

[well well well]

There's more to what I'm trying to say, I'll elaborate in my next post)

So, as I was saying)) OF COURSE there are requirements in the exam. Of course you're required to use linkers in your writing, etc. Otherwise, how would the examinators know if you are able to write concisely, if you are proficient in various styles of writing, or if you know and are able to use complex structures and vocabulary in your speech NATURALLY?

Accordingly, "cramming" stuff into your speech won't serve you well. I believe that high level exams don't only test your language knowledge but also probe into your overall intelligence. First and foremost, you have to make sense; then, you must do it, well, with proficiency)) because it's CPE)

[well well well]

Zlatko_Berrin, ok I got it about examinator's comments! Sorry!

[alanta]

We must know grammar, vocabulary, phrasal verbs, idioms... Not all natives know those things.

Grammar -- maybe. But "vocabulary, phrasal verbs, idioms" -- how's one supposed to speak her or her native language without all those things? The thing is natives don't overuse idioms, and they don't use idioms loosly as some learners sometimes do.
By the way, well well well, have you ever taken and passed the CAE or CPE?

[Zlatko_Berrin]

Native-like fluency doesn't guarantee good grades

Just to add. I think that exams like FCE, CAE etc. are quite a good way of learning English. I mean preparation for them, of course. Whether a person meets the requirements or not, without knowing English at an appropriate level, he or she can't pass any of those exams. So neither knowledge of English itself nor knowledge of an exam format itself guarantees good grades.

[well well well]

Thank you, alanta, for reminding me to be more specific. I wrote my first post in this thread in a hurry and meant to elaborate (as I wrote). Allow me to do just that)

When I say "grammar, vocabulary, phrasal verbs, idioms" and that natives "don't know them", I mean that first, many natives don't use complex grammar in their natural speech, or they use it without being aware of that, much less do they know how those comlex grammar structures are called (regards to James theBond) Second, vocabulary. When I say non-natives "know" it, I mean the exam takers are aware of proficiency levels and can distinguish which words are "fancy" and will get them points. A native would have to be really smart and educated (like Jordan Peterson 😍) to use fancy words in their day-to-day communication.

What's next, phrasal verbs? Right. I just DON'T THINK natives know that they are called that, and that there's any issue about using them correctly or anything of that sort. Learners of English are often hard up for their ability to master phrasal verbs -- well, at least that's the impression I have from reading forums and teaching a couple of people. I've never asked a native about a phrasal verb and how they use it because for them they're all just words. You communicate with English speakers, right? Have you ever had any kind of a discussion about grammar or phrasal verbs with them? I don't think you have because you talk about things, not language, right? In the language exam, it's the language that's being tested, so you have to be able to show off your linguistic skills within limited time and in a stressful situation.

Last, idioms. Again, same thing here -- natives might not even know the word "idiom", much less can they be bothered using any just for the sake of it.

For natives, all those things are "language", and I did say they know it) Non-natives, for their part, know a lot about how the language works and what exactly is required of them in the exam. That's why we are seeing native speaking being given 6 on IELTS scale, and that is why I personally shudder at the thought of Pavel Tashkinov's writing as I've seen it getting high grades for his CPE.

Now, back to where I started. Everything above is my personal opinion. It is not gospel truth, neither am I willing to change it. As for my language level, I will oblige and tell you that I took a mock CAE a few years ago.

[well well well]

Whether a person meets the requirements or not, without knowing English at an appropriate level, he or she can't pass any of those exams.

I couldn't agree more! That's what I've been saying forever!

[alanta]

You communicate with English speakers, right? Have you ever had any kind of a discussion about grammar or phrasal verbs with them?

As a matter of fact I've had discussions about grammar with the native speakers I know. They learn languages as a hobby so they've heard about phrasal verbs and idioms. A native speaker without such a language-learning background probably won't know some or all of the terms. However in my opinion it's more important to know how to use them correctly than how they are called. As you said in your post:
"natives might not even know the word "idiom", much less can they be bothered using any just for the sake of it."
The part I underlined is one of many reasons why sometimes a text written by non-native speakers looks weird to native speakers of the language.

[September]

Eager Beaver,

Thank you for sharing.

I enjoyed the way she’s talking (though the content bored me a little)).
I wish I could sound as relaxed as she does (provided she sounded the same in the exam)). Alas, whenever I feel I’m being evaluated, I get terribly tongue-tied even when speaking my native language. And this ability to perform at your best under pressure is yet another skill worth practicing for the exam.

I guess well well well gave a pretty thorough insight into what is expected from a candidate. (Can’t help thinking that I sound like a boring teacher now…sorry about that))

I’d add that another aspect that might present a certain difficulty is the requirement to stick to the point and to sctructure your answer well. Strange as it might seem, but students tend to go off on a tangent all the time. Sometimes they focus on the key words in the question and start blabbing happily without actually answering the question.

Yes, those wicked examiners knew their stuff when writing the criteria))) But, on the other hand, it makes our preparation way more exciting, doesn’t it?

[Eager Beaver]

Посмотрите как она говорила в 2012. Зачем она сдавала CPE?

Видимо, в школе/вузе попросили. А говорит она действительно хорошо, непринужденно так.

[alanta]

I guess well well well gave a pretty thorough insight into what is expected from a candidate.

Then I've got one more reason for not taking such a language exam any time soon, if ever. I've seen enough of that weird English stuffed with all that stuff (idioms, phrasal verbs, fancy high-brow words) with no reason. I don't want to write or/and speak like that. So my English needs to be good and strong enough before I start butchering it for an exam's sake.

[Eager Beaver]

well well well,
Thank you very much for your posts!
I believe I'm starting to get the hang of it after all. What they seem to require is that you must feel at ease using complex language naturally while being able to develop conversation in a meaningful way and expand on a topic under discussion. The grammar and vocabulary should pop into your head naturally, to help you convey your ideas in the most precise and succinct manner possible. There is barely enough time in the test to spend it on trying to put together a loose complex expression - you must already be perfectly comfortable with grammar, vocab and conversation management techniques, before you go in that room.

However, the question remains: How do you develop speaking both NATURALLY and USING COMPLEX LANGUAGE at the same time?
You can hardly pick up this from talking to native speakers about trivial stuff. Learning vocabulary from vocab textbooks will almost certainly contribute to you speaking even more unnaturally - mixing registers, not seeing shades of meaning and using words that are similar but not exactly interchangeable (and thus not particularly appropriate).
How do you develop that ability without making a laughing stock of yourself in the exam?

[Eager Beaver]

But, on the other hand, it makes our preparation way more exciting, doesn’t it?

It does indeed. Before I looked into all those IELTS/TOEFL/FCE/CAE/CPE books a couple of weeks back, I didn't even imagine that there is so much more to the speaking parts than just speaking.

[Eager Beaver]

I don't want to write or/and speak like that.

Me neither. But I do want to become proficient enough to be able to adjust my tone or register to whoever I'm talking to at the moment. That does require a lot more than just being able to talk - or rather speculate - about pretty much everything. The question is how you develop a skill like that.

[Eager Beaver]

"natives might not even know the word "idiom", much less can they be bothered using any just for the sake of it."
The part I underlined is one of many reasons why sometimes a text written by non-native speakers looks weird to native speakers of the language.

Native speakers use idioms all the time, I dare say much more profusely than any non-native speakers. But they seem to be used appropriately - there's usually no "WHAAT?" reaction from me when I see an email stuffed with cool stuff to the brim because everything is to the point. This is not usually the case with non-natives. Takes you a few seconds to figure out who's writing. Even less if the writing is full of highfalutin language.

[Eager Beaver]

(Can’t help thinking that I sound like a boring teacher now…sorry about that))

So, is teaching NOT helping you develop your speaking skills even further? At a recent family get-together, a relative of mine suggested that I should start teaching English on a day-to-day basis to develop fluency. He maintained that it's a more lucrative alternative to taking classes from teachers/native speakers. And as Белая Мишка mentioned in another thread, certain language schools now require teachers to have as high as Intermediate-level proficiency (if you can call it proficiency at all) to land a job. :)

[well well well]

you must feel at ease using complex language naturally while being able to develop conversation in a meaningful way and expand on a topic under discussion. The grammar and vocabulary should pop into your head naturally, to help you convey your ideas in the most precise and succinct manner possible.

Beautifully put😍

How do you develop speaking both NATURALLY and USING COMPLEX LANGUAGE at the same time?

I don't know, since I haven't taken CPE🙂 although I would if I had or wanted to. But again, if I try to guess and speculate, I'd say time and the right exposure might do the trick. If one doesn't have the opportunities to communicate with eloquent and educated natives, one can try discussing complex topics with anyone willing to do so using appropriate unabridged materials, like The Guardian articles and such.

As for writing, I'd say first, reading a lot, and then tons of writing)) it's easier to do when one has enough time to be able to check dictionaries, thesaurus and so on. Then with enough practice one can get a knack for using just the right words, phrases and structures. Also, some people have that feeling of the language, a natural talent for putting words together in an engaging manner without oversimplifying or complicating their wording. I've always thought this kind of talent comes from being used to reading extensively, usually since childhood.

[September]

So, is teaching NOT helping you develop your speaking skills even further?

Why would you say that? 0-0 It does help. Enormously so. I'm lucky to be working with motivated and smart advanced students, and that's a huge incentive for me to work harder on my own level.

[Olya]

How we speak is what we speak. If we find that we know little about the subject we cannot specify precisely what we want to express. Soon it becomes obvious that good language skills don't necessarily depend on the number of idioms, phrasal verbs, collocations, etc.

[Eager Beaver]

well well well,
Thanks! I guess I have yet to find someone eloquent and educated to talk to. :)
And as for writing (through reading), I believe it's time for me to start practicing it in a more orderly way (instead of just waffling about random things here). I read voraciously but the authors' styles and language don't rub off on me easily. Time to try out something new.