Discuss the short story A Cup of Tea by Katherine Mansfield.

Discuss any questions in English. Practise your writing skills.

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Yety
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#26

Сообщение Yety »

acapnotic пишет: 25 дек 2018, 14:24 Maybe they have different meaning?
However redundant it felt, it says here the article is optional:
chances are
the likelihood is (followed by a clause stating what is likely). Chances are that she would have been late even if she had left on time.

(the) chances ˈare (that) (informal)
it is likely (that): The chances are that he’ll come if he can finish work on time.
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#27

Сообщение acapnotic »

So I really used to misunderstand it. This is what happens when you omit a word but retain its meaning. It sits there invisible and confuses poor learners.
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#28

Сообщение kimberly »

I, BTW, found your English flawless. Are you sure it is your second language? )

Well, it's a bit 'bookish', but we are talking about books, right? )
Thank you, Kind Punk, it's very nice of you to say so. It IS a bit bookish because I picked it up mostly from books, and I feel it suits my personality.

Well, about her husband Philip - I was quite impressed how, in a matter of seconds, he gauged the whole situation with the visitor in his wife's bedroom and took a decisive action. Also, he comes across as very witty - his remark "... let me know if Miss Smith is going to dine with us in time for me to look up The Milliner's Gazette" and his innocent reaction to the news that she won't stay for dinner after all "Oh, what's happened? Previous engagement?" put me in awe of the man:-)

Now, to the enigmatic figure of Miss Smith. Any thoughts about her background?
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#29

Сообщение Yety »

It never really occurred to me that Philip was such a manipulative bastard as you see him.) To me, he was just a secondary character that was there to highlight Rosemary's weaknesses. So I had to re-read the story to try to see him from your perspective.

Your interpretation of his actions presents him as a cold-hearted, calculating hypocrite who is well aware of his wife's sore points he could hit to achieve the desired result. It's one thing that he innocently stirs every plain girl's secret fears, and that is literally another story if he messes with her mind deliberately instilling it with insecurity and jealousy.
And, though it might as well be the inertia of my comprehension, your vision of him seems to shift the focus from the main character of Rosemary and brings his character to the foreground just a little too much.
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#30

Сообщение acapnotic »

kimberly пишет: 25 дек 2018, 21:35 Well, about her husband Philip - I was quite impressed how, in a matter of seconds, he gauged the whole situation with the visitor in his wife's bedroom and took a decisive action.
Indeed. I had the same impression while reading the story. But upon consideration I think we shouldn't actually be surprised by that. After all, he had a profound understanding of his wife's character and knew what to expect from her. This particular incident was most likely not the first awkward consequence of her sentimentality he'd had to deal with. So he was somewhat prepared.

Besides, if we put on our detective's hats, was he really as surprised by the guest as he appeared to be? Let's not forget about the maid, who could easily have warned him about what was going on there. So again we have a reason to suspect he was prepared for the situation.

Since he was such a great manipulator, his staring at the girl could have been part of his plan (to show the impression her appearance had made on him).
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#31

Сообщение Olya »

Since he was such a great manipulator
All those images are potential reminders of the more interesting stories and novels.)
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#32

Сообщение kimberly »

acapnotic writes:
was he really as surprised by the guest as he appeared to be? Let's not forget about the maid, who could easily have warned him about what was going on there. So again we have a reason to suspect he was prepared for the situation.
You know, I think you hit the nail on the head here. I hadn't thought about it. Of course, the maid alerted him about the unusual visitor! So, perhaps he wasn't so good at thinking on the hoof, after all. I feel that my admiration of him is ebbing away:-)

Yeti writes:
Your interpretation of his actions presents him as a cold-hearted, calculating hypocrite who is well aware of his wife's sore points he could hit to achieve the desired result. It's one thing that he innocently stirs every plain girl's secret fears, and that is literally another story if he messes with her mind deliberately instilling it with insecurity and jealousy.
Well, I don't view him in this light. It wasn't that he plotted something against his wife. He wasn't even particularly underhand about it - he openly stated that the girl couldn't stay and he resorted to this manipulation just to nudge his wife in the right direction. And I don't think that he meant to hint at her plainness. In fact, such enthusiastic praise of another woman's charms is bound to put up red flags even for a very confident woman.

Yeti writes:
your vision of him seems to shift the focus from the main character of Rosemary and brings his character to the foreground just a little too much.
He IS a minor character, of course, but the writer gives enough information about him to make this discussion possible.

What about the other minor character, Miss Smith? Can we trace down any interesting info about her?
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#33

Сообщение acapnotic »

kimberly пишет: 26 дек 2018, 19:14 What about the other minor character, Miss Smith?
Not much, except that she was not used to the life she had to lead. So it's unlikely she had lived so for long.
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#34

Сообщение kimberly »

acapnotic writes:
she was not used to the life she had to lead. So it's unlikely she had lived so for long.
Why do you think she wasn't used to it?
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#35

Сообщение acapnotic »

kimberly пишет: 26 дек 2018, 20:34 Why do you think she wasn't used to it?
Some people can live on the streets for years, which means it's possible to find enough food if you know how, but she was so hungry that she was nearly fainting.
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#36

Сообщение kimberly »

Yes, it is possible that she has recently fallen on hard times... that would explain this quote : "There was something simple, sincere in that voice; it wasn't in the least the voice of a beggar". So, we can safely state that she wasn't a professional beggar. Also, she had a terrible outburst at Rosemary's: "I can't go on no longer like this. I can't bear it. I can't bear it. I shall do away with myself. I can't bear no more". The question is what she was protesting against so violently - going hungry or maybe something else?
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#37

Сообщение Kind_Punk »

The man is also a gentleman, BTW. He can say something like, maybe you'd better adopt a dog? ))

As for the beggar, it can be just a trick to get something from a wealthy woman.
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#38

Сообщение acapnotic »

kimberly пишет: 26 дек 2018, 21:30 "I can't go on no longer like this. I can't bear it. I can't bear it. I shall do away with myself. I can't bear no more".
When I read this I thought, "WTF? The girl definitely put it in different words!" And yes, if you read the text on the first link that Yeti gave me, it is "I can't go on any longer like this. I can't stand it. I wish I were dead. I really can't stand it!"

So all this time I've been reading a severely abridged version of the story. LOL. That's why I was surprised by its shortness. Yeti apparently didn't read it beyond the first couple of lines. :)
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#39

Сообщение Yety »

acapnotic пишет: 27 дек 2018, 07:51 Yeti apparently didn't read it beyond the first couple of lines. :)
No, I didn't.(
It did say 'by Katherine Mansfield', not 'after', though.
And that's the version I read to brush up on it myself.)
Sorry.

Now I remember I was surprised at the 5-page long version at lingualeo.) But I only checked the final words to see if the first link gave the 'full' version of the text.:)
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#40

Сообщение acapnotic »

Yety пишет: 27 дек 2018, 08:17Sorry.
Nobody is perfect. :) But now we have a lot of new details to ponder on.
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#41

Сообщение Dragon27 »

Also, for a little more book-like look:
https://archive.org/details/dovesnestot ... ns/page/50
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#42

Сообщение acapnotic »

acapnotic пишет: 27 дек 2018, 09:34 Nobody is perfect.
Indeed. I myself called Yety Yeti in my post above. So I'm sorry too. :)
kimberly пишет: 26 дек 2018, 21:30 "I can't go on no longer like this. I can't bear it. I can't bear it. I shall do away with myself. I can't bear no more". The question is what she was protesting against so violently - going hungry or maybe something else?
Even after reading the full version I still don't have any other idea. I think she was really fed up with her miserable life. What else could it be?
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#43

Сообщение Kind_Punk »

kimberly пишет: 26 дек 2018, 21:30 what she was protesting against so violently - going hungry or maybe something else?
All the things you have to meet with when you have no money. Like hunger, cold, bad food, worse weather, Mary Poppins )
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#44

Сообщение Yety »

acapnotic пишет: 27 дек 2018, 11:36 So I'm sorry too. :)
Don't be, old chum.)
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#45

Сообщение kimberly »

About Miss Smith... why was she hanging out in the streets after dark if she wasn't a beggar? Why was she afraid of being taken to the police station? There's also an interesting description of her transformation in Rosemary's bedroom: "a light, frail creature with tangled hair, dark lips, deep, lighted eyes, lay back in the big chair in a kind of sweet languor". In fiction, transformation usually means that the person is not what she seems. And when Philip entered the room, the girl " was strangely still and unafraid". There is definitely a mystery about this girl.

Actually, I cannot take credit for this idea, but when we were reading this story at a language school, our teacher mused, "I wonder if this girl is a prostitute." I think, it fits with her description :-) At least, there is nothing in the story that contradicts this theory.
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#46

Сообщение tourist »

kimberly,
I like your analyses so far, but your post #45 seems to be a bit of a stretch )
The story is short and everything that could've been concluded from it has already been mentioned.
At this stage this thread resembles a discussion about the meaning of Black Square by Malevich
or Mona Lisa's smile.
We can interpret anything the way we want to,but we'll never be in total agreement.

Anyway, to illustrate what I mean ...
I see your Ms Smith is a prostitute and raise you to
Rosemary is a lesbian or a bi in modern parlance )

Consider the following phrases:
You—you don't mean it, madam," said the girl, and there was pain in her voice.
But I do," cried Rosemary. " I want you to. To please me. Come along."
Don't be frightened. After all, why shouldn't you come back with me ? We're both women.
" Come, come upstairs," said Rosemary, longing to begin to be generous. " Come up to my room."
She leant over her, saying : " Won't you take off your hat ? Your pretty hair is all wet. And one is so much more comfortable without a hat, isn't one ? "
Enter Sandman jealous and obviously fed up with this behaviour Philip.
" But what on earth are you going to do with her ? " cried Philip.

See ?

What I'm trying to say is, there is only so much we can read between the lines,
the rest is our vanity )
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#47

Сообщение Olya »

I can just see tourist putting the finishing touches to the story. ;)
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#48

Сообщение Kind_Punk »

kimberly пишет: 27 дек 2018, 20:19 "I wonder if this girl is a prostitute."
Why she has no money, then? Whatever this job is, it is paid )
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#49

Сообщение tourist »

Why she has no money, then?
Volunteer, charity worker, promotional activity,pro bono
all sorts .. )
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#50

Сообщение Olya »

tourist пишет: 27 дек 2018, 23:07
Why she has no money, then?
Volunteer, charity worker, promotional activity,pro bono
all sorts .. )
That's not to say that she hasn't managed to get under the skin of a poor little thing. All in all, this story (or novel?) seems to offer no shortage of inspiration.)
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