The "the tenses..." question

Discuss any questions in English. Practise your writing skills.

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alanta
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#1

Сообщение alanta »

Recently I asked to point my mistakes (actually fossilized mistakes but who cares?) in a text I had written for another forum. alanta (Необучаемый взрослый ученик. Что делать?).
This is the text with the mistakes highlighted :
Nelli (Необучаемый взрослый ученик. Что делать?)
"... I've notice that usually when I'm reading a text written by a non-native speaker (with good command of English) I can understand, or easily guess, why for example the author use that or this tense, and all the tenses would be neatly put according the "textbook" rules. But it isn't the same with the texts written by native speakers, including professional writers. Often their choice of tenses, articles, etc. might come as a surprise and seems to go against the rules. Or maybe I just don't understand the rules :) . Either way, while I have some trouble to fit such a sentence into the consciously learned rules I usually have little trouble to match it to my inner "grammar rules" - the rules I had built/figured out during the first 4 years (almost 4 and a half actually) when I just read books and watched tv shows."
Since no real explanations or corrections were provided I had to make some guessing work on my own. So I've guessed that "I've notice" should be "I've noticed", "the author use" -> "the author uses" (which are typos but as I said - who cares?), and "trouble to fit"/"trouble to match" -> "trouble fitting"/"trouble matching". But. Could someone explain to me what's wrong with "the tenses would be"?
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acapnotic
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#2

Сообщение acapnotic »

Maybe it doesn't match the present tense of the preceding text. That is, it should probably be 'will'.
Also, "according TO the "textbook" rules".
tourist
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#3

Сообщение tourist »

my guess :
I understand why the author uses a particular tense
and why all the tenses are put
(being) used in accordance with...
Последний раз редактировалось tourist 24 ноя 2018, 22:10, всего редактировалось 1 раз.
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Chaika
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#4

Сообщение Chaika »

with good command > with a good command

the author use that or this tense> the author uses a particular tense

all the tenses would be neatly put according the > all the tenses would be used correctly according to the

the same with the texts > the same with texts

and seems to> and seem to

have some trouble to fit > have trouble fitting

into the consciously learned rules > into consciously learned rules,

little trouble to match > little trouble matching

rules I had built >rules I have built

the author uses some particular tense, and all the tenses would be neatly put according the "textbook" rules
This phrase is difficult to understand. If you say "the author uses" pres. tense, why "would be"? As if this is a run-on sentence. Do you mean

[Reading English written by a non-native spkr] I can understand ... why ... an author uses a particular tense and why all the tenses are used correctly in accordance with "textbook" rules.
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alanta
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#5

Сообщение alanta »

The text is a forum post, a small part of one. As many posts written in Russian by native Russian speakers on this site it has typos, ill-formed sentences and other problems. It is a piece of informal writing written late at night not a CPE essay. I chose it because it was the last post in my log there at the time and I wasn't going to go through all 30 pages of it just to find something impeccable. Besides it was (is) as close to a real-life speech as a written text can be so it suited the purpose - the origial question was about fossilized mistakes, not typos and the like. I'd known (suspected) that the text might have all kinds of mistakes because I'd never properly read it myself, otherwise I would've at least noticed such a "mistake" as "I've notice" without "-d". That being said, here we go...

"I've notice", "the author use", "according the" are typos.

"with good command" is a silly mistake.

"the same with the texts" yes, I had a feeling of overusing "the" when I was writing that.

trouble to fit/trouble to match - these two are probably real fossilized mistakes, and I mentioned it in the first post here.

"and seems to> and seem to" - either a typo or a ill-formed sentence

"rules I had built >rules I have built " - here it's "had" because I was speaking about the rules I had learned up to the precise moment in the past. There might be a problem with the last part of the sentence though.

"... why for example the author uses that or this tense, and all the tenses would be neatly put according to the "textbook" rules" here I stick with my wording no matter how ill-formed it might seem. As I said it's not an essay, it's a piece of a text written on the spur of the moment, so to speak. By writing "would be neatly put" I meant the process of writing when one word is put after another (according to the grammar rules, tenses agreement included) to form a sentence. So it may be "the tenses would be neatly put one after another according to the "textbook" rules" but not "the tenses would be used correctly" because that is not what I was talking about.

Speaking of uses/would. As far as know would is not exactly and/or always the past tense. There's something about that in "The English Verb..." by Lewis, for example. I could've written "will" here but I wouldn't have because "will" and "would" for me (maybe as a non-native speaker) have different degrees of certainty. "the tenses would be neatly put..." is an assumption but I am not 100% sure that it's always the case.

p.s. I didn't proofread this post either so...
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#6

Сообщение tourist »

alanta,
here I stick with my wording no matter how ill-formed it might seem
didn't expect that from you .. of all people.
Why would you insist on incorrect usage after it has already been explained?
Yes,it wasn't an exam or an application for a job, still...
Surely we need to learn how to do things properly before we start cutting corners,innit ? )
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#7

Сообщение alanta »

tourist пишет: 25 ноя 2018, 23:55 didn't expect that from you .. of all people.
Why would you insist on incorrect usage after it has already been explained?
Yes,it wasn't an exam or an application for a job, still...
Surely we need to learn how to do things properly before we start cutting corners,innit ? )
Because I don't think that it is incorrect and I've got my reasons for it. And I really don't need to polish this piece of writing to learn something.
Something like that)).
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#8

Сообщение tourist »

OK, as long as you realize that it is polish-able )
alanta
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#9

Сообщение alanta »

tourist пишет: 26 ноя 2018, 01:19 OK, as long as you realize that it is polish-able )
Everything is possible polish-able. And as they say there's no limit to perfection).
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#10

Сообщение Michelangelo »

alanta пишет: 26 ноя 2018, 01:11 Because I don't think that it is incorrect and I've got my reasons for it.
Chaika пишет: 24 ноя 2018, 21:54 This phrase is difficult to understand.
If you don't trust Chaika, we won't even try to correct you ever.
alanta
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#11

Сообщение alanta »

Michelangelo пишет: 26 ноя 2018, 14:55
alanta пишет: 26 ноя 2018, 01:11 Because I don't think that it is incorrect and I've got my reasons for it.
Chaika пишет: 24 ноя 2018, 21:54 This phrase is difficult to understand.
If you don't trust Chaika, we won't even try to correct you ever.
I don't even know how to react to this. Seriously.

First of all who is "we"? Николай II?.

Second. For the record, I've never asked for correction on this forum. At least on this new version of it. My first question here -> alanta (Необучаемый взрослый ученик. Что делать?) was about the fossilized mistakes an independent learner wouldn't be able to get rid of in years even with the help of a good teacher. That's how this text got here, on the forum, in the first place. Since I couldn't figure out what was wrong with the phrase "the tenses would be..." I decided to ask here - to hear it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

And third. TBH, if/when I need a correction I'd rather ask in other places.
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#12

Сообщение Michelangelo »

I am sorry, I cannot understand you. I might be misunderstood you that was why my answer like that. Maybe you don't mind being corrected. Still I don't understand.
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#13

Сообщение Mountbatten »

alanta, try to avoid starting your sentences with Because and And.
Your writing is ok in general. There are some minor mistakes and slips but it’s not the issue. The main trouble is that it has totally Russian syntax and rather big problems with composition. I could say that those are the aspects you should pay more attention.
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#14

Сообщение Mountbatten »

alanta, sorry, I have just read your last message, you didn’t need any advice on your writing. Looks like I got you wrong, sorry if my previous message is inappropriate.
alanta
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#15

Сообщение alanta »

If this is the post that caused the confusuion I'm sorry. This was meant like a joke, nothing more.
alanta пишет: 26 ноя 2018, 14:44
tourist пишет: 26 ноя 2018, 01:19 OK, as long as you realize that it is polish-able )
Everything is possible polish-able. And as they say there's no limit to perfection).
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#16

Сообщение Olya »

Of course, anything is possible but who cares? 😂
alanta
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#17

Сообщение alanta »

Olya пишет: 27 ноя 2018, 00:59who cares?
looks like you do... Изображение
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#18

Сообщение Michelangelo »

alanta пишет: 24 ноя 2018, 21:13 Recently I asked to point my mistakes
alanta пишет: 26 ноя 2018, 01:11 I don't think that it is incorrect
It is hard to understand why you asked to point out your mistakes if you didn't think it was incorrect.
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#19

Сообщение alanta »

Michelangelo пишет: 27 ноя 2018, 10:04
alanta пишет: 24 ноя 2018, 21:13 Recently I asked to point my mistakes
alanta пишет: 26 ноя 2018, 01:11 I don't think that it is incorrect
It is hard to understand why you asked to point out your mistakes if you didn't think it was incorrect.
Of course it's hard to understand something when you take phrases out of the context. If you read the whole post(s) the links included maybe it'll help. I can't promise it though.
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Michelangelo
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#20

Сообщение Michelangelo »

I looked at the links provided. I could see the same text there too.
Your question was about the use of "would" in the present. It is possible to use "would" in the present situation such as "would you like ..." or in subjunctive.
In your example it seems that was not a case of a polite request or subjunctive.

Chaika answered to you question I guessed.
Chaika пишет: 24 ноя 2018, 21:54 This phrase is difficult to understand. If you say "the author uses" pres. tense, why "would be"?
Your answer was
alanta пишет: 25 ноя 2018, 14:08 ... why for example the author uses that or this tense, and all the tenses would be neatly put according to the "textbook" rules" here I stick with my wording no matter how ill-formed it might seem.
so it seems to me that you weren't happy with Chaika's answer, but who can explain it to you better?
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#21

Сообщение alanta »

Michelangelo пишет: 27 ноя 2018, 12:56 but who can explain it to you better?
It might be hard to believe but Chaika is not the only native English speaker in the world.
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#22

Сообщение Michelangelo »

So you don't believe and insist on your belief that you are right. That is exactly what I thought initially.


Believe me or not but I had the same question 15 years ago and Americans told me that they don't use "would" for present or future
They use it when you have some uncertainty though, but it must be subjunctive when we are doing a guess-work. In your sentence you were writing
alanta пишет: 24 ноя 2018, 21:13 the author use that or this tense, and all the tenses would be neatly put according the "textbook" rules.
"use .. " and " would" - why "would" if it is exactly the same moment of time as "use"? Don't you know that "would" is a past form of "will" and that English people don't put present forms and past forms in the same sentence or even in the same paragraph?

I would think that writing "would be neatly put" means that something occurred repeatedly in the past.

So the author "use" now, but s/he put the tenses repeatedly some time ago. Why? How does it relate?
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#23

Сообщение alanta »

Michelangelo, it seems you didn't get the hint. I asked native speakers about that sentence. Actually I *had* asked them before starting this thread. Then I asked them once again. I'm definitely not going to ask them one more time now. Especially after I gave them a link to this thread.
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#24

Сообщение Olya »

This phrase is difficult to understand
Agree that it sounds at least ambiguous
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#25

Сообщение Michelangelo »

Olya пишет: 27 ноя 2018, 16:41
This phrase is difficult to understand
Agree that it sounds at least ambiguous
This quoted sentence sounds ambiguous? Or the usage of "would"? Native speakers do not mix present and past like that, and "would" in that sentence sounds like past from "will". Why just not use "will" once we are talking about the present or future?
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