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Yety
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#101

Сообщение Yety »

Not exactly about grammar, rather about the history of the language. An opinion on Quora...

Why can't “native” English words end with "u, v, i, or j"?
Gareth Adamson
Updated Jun 24, 2020
Edited for brevity.

‘J’ is the newest letter of the alphabet, only clearly distinguished from ‘i’ starting in 1633 on. Most words had already fixed their spelling by then. It remains one of the least common letters, and is only used in words of foreign origin, although these do include French words which have been in the language a very long time, but I can’t think of any Anglo-Saxon words with a ‘j’ in them anywhere, let alone at the end. French words cannot end in ‘j’, and neither can English words borrowed from French.

‘V’ is also a fairly new letter. In Old English, the letter ‘f’ was used for what are now considered two separate sounds, ‘f’ and ‘v’, much as ‘v’ is in Modern German. These were considered to be variants of the same sound, and which you used depended on the stress pattern and the position in the word. At the end of a word, it was always pronounced ‘f’. So you couldn’t get a ‘v’ sound at the end of an Old English word. It could occur at the end of a stem, e.g. steorfan, meaning ‘die’ or ‘starve’. In these cases, the ending has often been lost, but we still have a residual ‘e’, as a vestige of the pronounced ending that was once there.

Loads of Old English words ended in ‘u’, as it was a common noun and adjective ending. But English lost its endings, including that one, and those that remained were neutralised to ‘e’. With the Great English Vowel Shift, ‘u’ by itself came to represent a fairly neutral, transitional sound, which cannot really occur at the end of a syllable, let alone a word.

ADDED: There is one obvious and completely native word which does end in ‘i’. It also begins with ‘i’ and has just one letter. So it is not quite true that native English words cannot end in ‘i’, but it is very uncommon, for much the same reasons as with ‘u’. The Great Vowel Shift has made a lone ‘i’ into a passing vowel, which, given English pronunciation style, can only go between two consonants.

Up to the 15th century, ‘y’ could always be used instead of ‘i’, and was always used where what might have been considered an ‘i’ sound came at the end of a word, probably for reasons of handwriting style: they thought the flourish of the ‘y’’s tail was a better way to end a word. For the same reason, in lower case Roman numerals, they always wrote a final ‘i’ as a ‘j’, e.g. ‘2’ was written ‘ij’, ‘18’ as ‘xviij’. This has come down to us in a lot of words which still end in ‘y’, with a vowel sound quite similar to an ‘i’, but not quite the same. It is modified to end the word gracefully, and that sound became associated with ‘y’, not ‘i’. It is physically possible to end a word with the standard lone ‘i’ sound, as in Monty Python’s Knights Who Say ‘Ni!’ But it sounds silly, and indeed that is the very reason they chose that sound for the knights.

[I overlooked that ‘you’ ends with ‘u’, so ‘i’ and ‘u’ each have one very similar exception. Thanks to Brenda Haug.]

Here’s a little taste of what English might sound like with ‘i’ at the end of words:

Лицарi, що говорять "Нi!"))
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#102

Сообщение Yety »

Из ламповой истории вольного обращения с грамматической терминологией...)))
45 years of unergativity and unaccusativity

Posted on 2021-10-31 by Martin Haspelmath

Если вдруг кому-то понадобится пропраймить:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unergative_verb
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unaccusative_verb

Или тут:
http://web.mit.edu/norvin/www/24.902/unaccusatives.html
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#103

Сообщение Yety »

Yes, singular they is that singular..=)

"The story ... is called The Mountain. It's by acnier - the name of the user who came up with this. I think acnier wrote it THEMSELF ... themself(?) - I don't know if it's a boy or a girl, so I'm saying 'themself'."

В словарях пока ещё nonstandard..
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... h/themself
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... h/themself
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/themself
themself
pronoun not standard
А в ldoce - просто spoken.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/themself
Usage
The standard reflexive form corresponding to they and them is themselves, as in they can do it themselves.
The singular form themself, corresponding to the singular gender-neutral use of they (as in this is the first step in helping someone to help themself), was first recorded in the 14th century but largely fell out of use between the 16th and 19th centuries and is now not widely accepted in standard English.
However, in the 21st century themself has taken on a new use, referring to specific individuals who have a non-binary gender identity.
Форма раскрывает потенциал своей внутренней логики..
https://www.lexico.com/grammar/themselves-or-themself
In recent years, people have started to use themself to correspond to this singular use of they and them: it’s seen as the logical singular form of themselves. For example:

This is the first step in helping someone to help themself.

This form is not yet widely accepted, though, so you should avoid using it in formal written contexts.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/themself
С комментарием:
Update: This sense was added in September 2019
As singular 'they' becomes more popular, 'themself' is also gaining traction.
...
But if you'd been typing in the late 1300s, themself would have been the default: it was the only version around until the mid-1400s. The earliest evidence of themselves referring to plural they or them is from 1466, and the earliest evidence of themselves referring to singular they or them is from 1529. Meanwhile, themself was used for the plural from at least 1382 (and possibly for close to 200 years before that), and for the singular from around 1450.

Eventually, themselves became the only accepted form. But themself never fully disappeared. Here it is in use by two well-known American writers:
Emily Dickinson, letter, 24 Sept. 1881
F. Scott Fitzgerald, letter, circa 1915
Отвоёвывает, значицца, ранее утраченные позиции, да. Асимметричненько.))
the person there is all by themself...

На очереди - новый рубеж - дотянуться до астерисков:
Usually the last person to recognize they are *IS ill is the depressive themself.
If someone here wants a chance to push themself, they always get *GETS it.
))
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#104

Сообщение Yety »

Не всё про грамматику, но уместно:
Five ways the internet era has changed British English
by Vaclav Brezina , The Conversation
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#105

Сообщение Yety »

И снова - про
Yety пишет: 19 окт 2021, 13:32fewer and less
- в основном, в контексте жизненного цикла слов:
Words in English don’t last forever. And that’s okay.
By Anne Curzan, WP
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#106

Сообщение Yety »

https://youtube.com/shorts/gojGyiHkffE?feature=share|
11-year-old boy gets SHOCKING book at school library #shorts

Две вещи.
1. Про пуризм:
"When I rented it out to show my dad it, ..."

2. Про новомодности 30-летней давности:
"As a mom, I can't with this."
https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2012 ... -with.html
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#107

Сообщение VictorB »

Вот на такую ... странность натолкнулся (подчуркнуто) в Host by Peter James. Герой в полусне думает о другой (Кэрен, с которой он в послели - его жена) женщине, которая привиделась ему стоящей в ногах постели:
An eerie sensation. Joe shivered, wondering suddenly if she had died and was trying to communicate something to him. Sometimes when people died they appeared in front of others at the exact moment of death. His throat felt constricted and he held his breath, listening. Karen slept on, her breathing slow and steady. Don’t have died tonight; please not tonight; live longer; tell me more about you; tell me more about your experiments. I want to save you. I want to sleep with you.
Подумалось, что на лицо баг при форматировании pdf в epub, но проверил - нет, не баг. Пришлось за ответом идти к боту, и вот как он разъяснил этот, с виду, грамматический "закидон":
In the passage you provided from the book "Host" by Peter James, the phrase "Don’t have died tonight" seems to be a combination of informal or colloquial language with a sense of urgency and emotional pleas.

It appears that the character Joe is expressing his deepest feelings and fears in a raw and unfiltered manner, which may explain the unconventional grammar. By saying "Don’t have died tonight," he is essentially expressing his hope or desire that Karen has not died or is not in the process of dying on that particular night.

The unusual phrasing, with the absence of "you" after "have," could perhaps be a stylistic choice made by the author to reflect the character's emotional state and the immediacy of his thoughts.

In narratives, authors sometimes use unconventional grammar or syntax to convey a character's state of mind, dialogue, or emotions more authentically. This technique can help create a sense of intimacy or urgency, drawing the reader closer to the character's thoughts and feelings.
Уж и не знаю что и сказать, хотя какая-то логика в этом явно просвечивается:
Пожалуйста, ты не умерла. Не в эту ночь...
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#108

Сообщение Kind_Punk »

VictorB пишет: 25 фев 2024, 13:46 Don’t have died tonight;
= don't be already dead, to me )
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#109

Сообщение VictorB »

Kind_Punk пишет: 25 фев 2024, 15:24 = don't be already dead, to me )
Ну, теперь-то и to me, too[/i )]
Спасибо, что не прошел мимо :)
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#110

Сообщение Yety »

VictorB пишет: 25 фев 2024, 13:46 The unusual phrasing, with the absence of "you" after "have," could perhaps be a stylistic choice made by the author to reflect the character's emotional state and the immediacy of his thoughts.
Тут бот каж написал какую-то ерунду, подгоняя структуру под causative (?)
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#111

Сообщение VictorB »

VictorB пишет: 25 фев 2024, 13:46 Уж и не знаю что и сказать, хотя какая-то логика в этом явно просвечивается:
Пожалуйста, ты не умерла. Не в эту ночь...
Аналогичная по остроте переживаний ситуация: Жена героя звонит ему на работу и в истерике сообщает, что их четырехлетний сын вдруг пропал прямо из дома, при ней. Герой мчится домой и в голове у него только одно;
Not Jack, don’t let anything have happened to Jack! Be-OK, please-be-OK, please-be-OK, Jack. He repeated the thought over and over as he climbed into the car and fumbled to get the key into the ignition.
Логика использования перфекта в побудительном предложении здесь очевидна:
Пусть с Джеком ничего (страшного) не произошло!
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#112

Сообщение FPlay »

Republican leaders retain control of the calendar and decide which bills come to the floor when.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/why-mike-j ... _lead_pos2

интересная позиця when
СпойлерПоказать
The placement of ‘when’ at the end of the sentence is a common feature in informal English. It could also be placed immediately after the noun it modifies for a more formal structure, like so: “Republican leaders retain control of the calendar and decide when which bills come to the floor.” However, both placements are grammatically correct.
Copilot (AI)
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