Language Here, Language There

Discuss any questions in English. Practise your writing skills.

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Xander
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#26

Сообщение Xander »

I'll say straight away that I personally hold no partial stance on this cause célèbre, and just put this mockery of a fad slash trend right in this here thread.

... ; the change made by the sub-editor was to substitute ‘humankind’ for ‘mankind.’

then the snappy columnist proceeds to toy with malleable semantics and just as polymorphous morphology

... But my other objections to the substitution are more serious, at least if moral considerations are more important than aesthetic ones. Of course, to object to the use of the use of the word ‘mankind’ because it is sexist is as absurd and literal-minded as to object to the word ‘person’ because it, too, is sexist: who, after all, is this ‘per’ whose son has given his name to everyone in the world? Surely, to be absolutely egalitarian between the sexes, it should be ‘peroffspring’?
Come to think of it, ‘humankind’ is also sexist, very nearly as sexist as ‘mankind,’ for it contains the world ‘man’. It should therefore, in all consistency, be changed to ‘peroffspringkind.’ Moreover, the word ‘woman’ should likewise be changed to ‘woperoffspring.’ The possibilities for language reform are almost infinite, at least in English.


Jocose discourse keeps burgeoning, and in the ad-lib sounding denouement this social satirist propounds an unthinkable proposition which I totally disagree with and not gonna cite, no, in that for some (mis-)readers his sense of jest might appear a bit too elaborate and acerbic, if not fiendish.
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#27

Сообщение Xander »

Entry #8
Beauty and the Beast

It is more difficult to write interestingly of good people than of bad; villains are generally more memorable than heroes. A newspaper that reported only acts of kindness and generosity would be insufferably boring and would go bankrupt even faster than those that relay only disaster caused by defalcation. To adapt very slightly Tolstoy’s famous aphorism, good people are all good in the same way, but bad people are all bad in their own way.

To write of good people is often to sound either naïve or priggish; whereas to write of the bad is to appear worldly and sophisticated. One of the reasons, of course, for the difficulty of writing interestingly of the good is that there seems so much less to say of them than of the bad. The good act according to principle, and are therefore lamentably (from the literary point of view) predictable. Once you know how they behave in one situation, you know how they will behave in others. The bad, by contrast, have no principles beyond the pursuit of short-term self-interest, and sometimes not even that. They are therefore unpredictable and their conduct is infinitely various. As I discovered in my medical work, the variety of human self-destruction is, like the making of books, without end; and even the least imaginative and inventive may discover new ways of exercising malignity. Since variety is the spice of prose, the bad are lingered upon with affection by most, if not by all, writers.


Dalrymple, Theodore. Farewell Fear

To develop the idea a bit further,
if one were to draw analogies between novel crafting and forum posting, then he might very well start praising trolls, haters, scammers, language abusers and generally boorish fellas. Yeah, not to be all too bland real life requires real contrasts, the starker the better. Tumult versus equilibrium, deviousness versus artlessness, Real Madrid VS Chicago Bulls.
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#28

Сообщение Mary May »

... just remember Lord Byron's Cain as opposed to Abel;

still, in real life - no matter how tedious it may seem - I'd better try to relieve the tension and reconcile the fierce warriors rather than rock the boat just for fun.

Oh, my bad: in real life... No real life here)
But still. Just for balance.
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#29

Сообщение tourist »

Xander пишет: 03 авг 2018, 13:02 if one were to draw analogies between novel crafting and forum posting, then he might very well start praising trolls, haters, scammers, language abusers and generally boorish fellas. Yeah, not to be all too bland real life requires real contrasts, the starker the better. Tumult versus equilibrium, deviousness versus artlessness, Real Madrid VS Chicago Bulls.
it seems you have answered your own question:
forum posting and novel crafting should not be treated the same,
they are entirely different beasts )

Mary May пишет: 03 авг 2018, 15:10 I'd better try to relieve the tension and reconcile the fierce warriors rather than rock the boat just for fun.
Sure,you can try,but often you won't be able to solve the problem without rocking the boat.
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#30

Сообщение Olya »

Not that trolling, hating and language abusing are ever mainstream here but some personalities regularly find themselves as kind of outliers. I don't understand why certain forum members face intense criticism being attacked for their opinions.
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#31

Сообщение tourist »

Olya,
there're opinions and there're opinions ...
Not all opinions are created equal.
Stupid "opinions" should not be encouraged here or anywhere.
Just saying..
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#32

Сообщение Olya »

Do not judge or you too will be judged.)
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#33

Сообщение tourist »

Bring it on ! )
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#34

Сообщение Mary May »

tourist, Olya,
I'm not sure it's the right/the best place to discuss things like these.
Don't think it's what Xander had in mind.
Feel guilty for making the mess, too.
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#35

Сообщение Xander »

Mary May пишет: 03 авг 2018, 15:10 I'd better try to relieve the tension and reconcile the fierce warriors rather than rock the boat just for fun
I see. ) I was actually a bit overstretching the line, just to play around, you know, to Practice Your English, so to speak. )
tourist пишет: 03 авг 2018, 18:34 forum posting and novel crafting should not be treated the same,
they are entirely different beasts )
You got me busted for ... tinkering with logos. Well done.
Even so your viewpoint could be more or less refuted in a matter of couple rather long paragraphs which I'm just claiming I can write but not going to. My mind needs rest. )

My footnote comment was all but an intentional flaw in the reasoning, a little bit provocative display of logical fallacy (call it excluded middle or non sequitor or whatever)). Because it's less about language than about psychology, those interested in the subject (of the entry #8 I mean) for real (and willing to elaborate) could open a new thread and sign me up as a participant.
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#36

Сообщение Xander »

Must admit that sometimes (mostly due to my intolerance to first-rate bullshit)) I myself cross this not always visible line, but I hope usually it happens within reason, and if it somehow does I first of all try to rely on logic, the central pillar of all languages. Also remember my first days here (the old forum, I mean): I put forward an opinion - which by the way I still hold on to, - and was called a bona fide troll ))), not by some strangers passing by, but by the most highly respected forumers out here, yeah, who shall remain unnamed. ))) No one is safe from such accidents.

Anyway, it's nothing but our human nature, and the thin skinned half should somehow try to develop immunity against verbally unrestrained. All in all, I always try to keep in mind that whatever one is saying online or offline (doesn't matter) first and foremost shows what kind of person the speaker is, and the provided facts/quotes/evidence will or will not shed light on whoever the subject of the message might be.

№9
Thank You For Not Expressing Yourself

I'll begin in medias res
...
He (Richard Dawkins) ran a website for people of like mind, but noticed that many of the comments that appeared on it were beside the point, either mere gossip or insult. So he announced that he was going to exercise a little control over what appeared on it - as was his right since it was, after all, his site. Censorship is not failing to publish something, it is forbidding something to be published, which is not at all the same thing, though the difference is sometimes ill-appreciated.

The torrent of vile abuse that he received after his announcement took him aback. Its vehemence was shocking; someone called him ‘a suppurating rat’s rectum.’ He replied to this abuse with admirable restraint:
Surely there has to be something wrong with people who can resort to such over-the-top language, overreacting so spectacularly to something so trivial.

As it happens, I have myself sometimes been the recipient of such abuse: if, that is, one can be said to be the recipient of anything that remains in the virtual world alone. No subject is too recondite to provoke the insensate rage of those who disagree with the view the author has taken of it. Indeed, it sometimes seems as if fury leading to ill-mannered personal abuse and foul language is the predominant mode of disagreement in our society, at least among those who append their comments to an article that appears on the internet.
...
...
...
The insults and abuse did not come from uneducated people. This is not surprising, really, because uneducated people are unlikely to care very much what George Bernard Shaw thought of the germ theory of disease (I edited out this part); most of them have other, more practical things to think about. You have to have read Bernard Shaw to care, and these days at least, I think only university types are likely to do that.

Indeed, much of the abuse, even the vilest, came from university professors. Almost to a man (or woman), they said that what I had written was so outrageous, so ill-considered and ill-motivated, that it was not worth the trouble of refutation. On the other hand, they thought its author was worth insulting, if their practice was anything to go by. I didn’t know whether I – a mere scribbler – should feel flattered that I was deemed worthy of the scatological venom of professors (not all of them from minor institutions, and some of them quite eminent).

What struck me most about these missives is the sheer amount of hatred that they contained. It was not disdain or even contempt, but hatred.

These professors of hate would, I am sure, not have put their pen to paper, in the old-fashioned way, to express their feelings; they would not have written to a newspaper in the terms in which they replied to me over the internet, and certainly they would never have expected it to be published. In the days before the internet existed, or before access to it was virtually universal, I used often to receive letters through the post in response to my articles. It is not quite true that I never received abuse, but such abuse was largely from isolated cranks – the address of the newspaper in red ink or an envelope cut in two and sealed with sellotape was a clue to disagreeably expressed dissent to come.

However, for the most part criticism of what I had written was reasoned and tolerably polite. It is with chagrin that I must admit that sometimes my critics were right: I had made a mistake in fact or logic, or (worst of all) in grammar. I consoled myself with the exculpatory thought that anyone who wrote as much as I was bound sometimes to make mistakes.

With the coming of the internet, the tone of the criticism changed. It became shriller, more personal, more hate-filled. It wasn’t just that I had made a mistake, I must be an evil person, probably in the pay of some disreputable organisation or other.
...
...
...
I don’t suppose there is an easy solution to this problem; that is, if it is a problem. The auguries are not particularly good if it is also true, as it is in my experience, that professors of literature are among the worst offenders. If those who teach youth are unable to control themselves, and to keep their disagreement within the bounds of common civility, what can we expect of youth itself?



Dalrymple, Theodore. Farewell Fear
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#37

Сообщение tourist »

Censorship is not failing to publish something, it is forbidding something to be published.

I like that a lot.
Implementing this concept here,though,would be an exercise in wishful thinking, sorry to say...
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#38

Сообщение Ленья »

tourist пишет: 06 авг 2018, 00:52 Censorship is not failing to publish something, it is forbidding something to be published.

I like that a lot.
Implementing this concept here,though,would be an exercise in wishful thinking, sorry to say...
Yep, sometimes… I wish our moderators had the foresight to nip it in the bud.
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#39

Сообщение Ленья »

Xander пишет: 05 авг 2018, 23:34 Also remember my first days here (the old forum, I mean): I put forward an opinion - which by the way I still hold on to, - and was called a bona fide troll )))
What was it about? I mean, your opinion) I seem to have joined later.
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#40

Сообщение well well well »

Ленья пишет: 07 авг 2018, 22:06 had the foresight to nip it in the bud.
Nip what exactly in the bud, if I may ask?)

What if our moderators have the foresight to let IT flourish?
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#41

Сообщение Ленья »

well well well пишет: 07 авг 2018, 22:14
Nip what exactly in the bud, if I may ask?)
Some sort of provocation, hidden advertising spawning dozens of flood.
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#42

Сообщение tourist »

well well well,
What if our moderators have the foresight to let IT flourish?
it's not so much foresight that prevents them from doing their job, it's rather a company policy ...(
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#43

Сообщение Ленья »

well well well пишет: 07 авг 2018, 22:14
What if our moderators have the foresight to let IT flourish?
It's up to them, it's their realm here) I'm not against realy, but a little bit regretting.
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#44

Сообщение well well well »

I believe Xander has sort of figured the issue out when he told a story about some Russian internet mogul and his thoughts on flood being the lesser evil when one has to concern oneself with forum dynamics, meaning that mudslinging is often preferred to the sounds of silence.
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#45

Сообщение well well well »

tourist пишет: 07 авг 2018, 22:28 , it's rather a company policy ...(
This indeed seems to be the case(((
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#46

Сообщение Michelangelo »

well well well пишет: 07 авг 2018, 22:38 mudslinging is often preferred to the sounds of silence.
Who forces them to do so? If people enjoy that, and they mutually agree to play such a game... I think that every one of us participate in such games to some extent, right? We must blame ourselves once we support those situations in one way or another.
Don't write in threads you don't like or consider mudslinging and nobody will sling any mud at you :)
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#47

Сообщение Xander »

Ленья пишет: 07 авг 2018, 22:09 What was it about? I mean, your opinion)
Well, let's make a new entry out of it
№10

Have been reading a book about education recently. Even though the author was four times the best teacher of the year (New York), it turned out to be far from exciting, but still I managed to find a few jems here and there.



I loved learning and enjoyed the aspects of school that allowed me to do that, but I always knew there was something off about school when I was a student. I was a product of the No Child Left Behind era, and I remember the deluge of standardized tests that always defined the end of the school year. My best teachers were those who did not follow exam requirements and only begrudgingly made sure that the exams were completed.

The best teacher I had was one who signed passes so students could skip other classes to go to her classroom and work on whatever they wanted. The worst were those obsessed with meeting state-mandated standards.
...
...
...
Even in the best schools, a close examination of curriculum and its sequences turns up a lack of coherence, a host of internal contradictions. Fortunately the children have no words to define the panic and anger they feel at constant violations of natural order and sequence fobbed off on them as quality in education. The logic of the school-mind is that it is better to leave school with a tool kit of superficial jargon derived from economics, sociology, natural science, and so on than with one genuine enthusiasm. But quality in education entails learning about something in depth. Confusion is thrust upon kids by too many strange adults, each working alone with only the thinnest relationship with each other, pretending, for the most part, to an expertise they do not possess.



John Taylor Gatto - Dumbing Us Down. The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling


So, my point on the old forum was about CPE, and that giving up two years (actually, as I think of it now, anything more than one-two months) of your life just to prepare for this intrinsically biased and undeservedly overestimated examination/certificate was downright insane. And right there we had nice examples of people (with proficiency way above average) who happened to really know the language and passed this exam with little to no preparation (2-3 weeks). Nevertheless, certain participants stubbornly refused to believe the obvious, i.e. knowledge itself trumps everything else put together. It might be so that they couldn't make a distinction between language learning & knowing (essay/letter/article writing, coherence, cohesion, fluency and pronunciation, critical thinking, etc) and exam preparation (timing, format, specific requirements, scoring system, various tricks) {yes, I know, exam books always contain both of these} .

If I try to find more common ground between my point and Gatto's message, it might sound like: language exams are for taking, not for worshipping or for making it a yardstick of excellence. Love the language, study it without driving yourself into anything even remotely resembling boredom (like virtually all exam or ESL coursebooks I know) (option: find a teacher who can make any - even the dullest - book sing). Only if one's life dictates other very specific 'choices' (immigration, studying abroad, applying for a new job) it would make sense for one to turn to this fun-draining activity, drudgery of a chore. With gusto, of course, for so much is at stake. )
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#48

Сообщение alanta »

Xander пишет: 08 авг 2018, 13:09 Only if one's life dictates other very specific 'choices' (immigration, studying abroad, applying for a new job) it would make sense for one to turn to this fun-draining activity, drudgery of a chore.
From my point of view, these are the only viable reasons for taking one of those exam. That's what the exams were obviously designed for. Actually reading this and the old forum has made me believe that a result of the exams proves nothing, unfortunately. The longer I study English the less impressed I become by English of the certificate holders (I mean C1/C2).
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#49

Сообщение Xander »

alanta пишет: 08 авг 2018, 15:14 Actually reading this and the old forum has made me believe that a result of the exams proves nothing, unfortunately. The longer I study English the less impressed I become by English of the certificate holders (I mean C1/C2).
Yeah, the only points that do matter are those for Speaking & Writing

Hypothetically, a CPE holder could be no more than a confident B1 very intermediate level speaker.
Imagine we have [230(UoE) + 230 (R) + 230(L) + 155(S) + 155(W)] / 5 = 200 (CPE Band C, Proficiency level my ass).
155 - PET, Band A / B1 / IELTS 5.0

Even if we try to get a little bit more real and make the numbers 220+220+220+170+170 accordingly / 5 = 200, we'll still be dealing with B2 Upper-Intermediate Level FCE Band C (170 / IELTS 6.0)

More real still
210+210+210+185+185 / 5 = the same 200
185 - FCE Grade A, Level C1 (IELTS between 6.5 & 7.0), which is not that bad, but still a looooooong way to go to more or less real C1, not to mention top of the scale C2
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#50

Сообщение Viverra »

Xander, have you ever seen such a giant gap between these skills? Is it even possible? I doubt.
There is also a statement of results though, so all the data is always available at the same certificate, not only a band.
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