Language Here, Language There

Discuss any questions in English. Practise your writing skills.

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#1

Сообщение Xander »

Periodically I come across some very interesting language-related facts and stories, which can't be easily found online now or any time soon, such as the following

Entry №1
Vladimir Nabokov and the New Yorker
"Another virtuosic newcomer to The New Yorker was the Russian writer Vladimir Nabokov, who was brought to the magazine’s attention by Edmund Wilson. He had written some poetry for The New Yorker, but his early prose pieces, which began in 1948, took a prodigious amount of work on Katharine White’s part. His syntax required some ironing, and he was partial to queer or archaic words that no one recognized. “Edmund Wilson once explained this … by saying I must remember that Nabokov learned most of his English vocabulary by studying the Unabridged Oxford English Dictionary,” Mrs. White noted years later. This was just the sort of thing that exasperated Ross, and when he heard that Nabokov had been approached by Cornell about teaching, he told Mrs. White, “I may cut my throat.” Nevertheless, he was enchanted by Nabokov’s warm, detailed evocations of his aristocratic childhood in Russia."


Edmund Wilson - a book reviewer for the New Yorker
Katharine White - a fiction editor for the New Yorker
Harold Ross - the New-Yorker co-founder and the editor-in-chief
Cornell - a private Ivy League research university, US

Thought some of you here might find it interesting.
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#2

Сообщение Olya »

As with many others the revolution pruved to be a destructive event for Nabokov and his family. But while others were arrested and killed he suddenly found himself a great English-speaking writer. I don't know whether the Soviet authorities prevented Nabokov from returning home but I think he longed for his homeland.
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#3

Сообщение tourist »

Olya,
Sorry to hijack this thread...I've got nothing to say on the merit,
but I'd like you to write more on this sub forum or elsewhere for that matter )
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#4

Сообщение Olya »

tourist,

I wish I could but I am not fond of his books and find his novels a bit boring and forced.
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#5

Сообщение tourist »

Olya,
I meant Practise Your English subforum,
not necessarily this particular thread )
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#6

Сообщение Olya »

On the surface, this doesn't seem like a difficult problem - to write more about something. There have been really encouraging moments, starting with the World Cup and our wins. But there have been some negative ones too. So I'd rather think them all over before I make an informed choice.)
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#7

Сообщение Xander »

Entry №2
Style and the Japanese

"In ninth-century Japan, and indeed earlier, most correspondence was conducted in poetry: a cultivated Japanese knew several hundred poems and scriptures from which he could quote lines suitable to any idea or occasion—if not, he contrived his own, for poetry was the entertainment of the day. Judging from what we have seen of their entertainment recently, their dances and their films, the custom still prevails; certainly what we have received have been poems of communication."

Capote, Truman. Portraits and Observations
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#8

Сообщение Mary May »

Заголовок: Just Something To Share
Xander пишет: 06 июл 2018, 15:15 Periodically I come across some very interesting language-related facts and stories, which can't be easily found online now or any time soon, such as the following

Thought some of you here might find it interesting.
Thank you for posting this, it is interesting indeed.
I would say it might be a brilliant example of how stories/rumours related to celebrities spread: a mr Wilson says something to a mrs White, who, in her turn, repeats it to the author of the quoted extract (or - which is much more likely - there may be far more steps in between) who, then, publishes it in the New Yorker (?), where you find it and share it with us (thank you very much again!)... What's (who's the) next?
The (sensational) claim that
Nabokov learned most of his English vocabulary by studying the Unabridged Oxford English Dictionary
which explains weird wording and archaicisms found in his early American writing could arise genuine interest here, on the EFL-related forum.
Although I am not fully convinced by the statement, I'm afraid.
According to Nabokov's memoirs, he was brought up in a family with anglophile parents, with foreign nurses and, later, tutors being always there for him since his infancy. Speaking Russian, English and French in his household, Nabokov learned to read and write in English prior to doing it in Russian. You might have a healthy dose of scepticism towards this, as I can offer you no proof of his early proficiency in English except his own words.
However, I've got at least one more point, and it's a solid fact. For four years, Nabokov had been studying at the famous Trinity College (Cambridge University), and even if we believe him that he was not a diligent and hard-working student,
СпойлерПоказать
Vladimir Nabokov brings Tirana to Trinity

Not once in my three years of Cambridge – repeat: not once – did I visit the University Library, or even bother to locate it (I know its new place now), or find out if there existed a College library where books might be borrowed for reading in one’s digs. I skipped lectures. I sneaked to London and elsewhere. I conducted several love affairs simultaneously. I had dreadful interviews with Mr Harrison.1 I translated into Russian a score of poems by Rupert Brooke, Alice in Wonderland, and Romain Rolland’s Colas Breugnon. Scholastically, I might as well have gone up to the Inst. M. M. of Tirana.

1. Nabokov’s Tutor.

From VLADIMIR NABOKOV [matric. 1920], Speak Memory (1951)
https://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/about/histor ... iterature/
still, he graduated with a BA and who dares to say that his knowledge of the language was just bookish.
Nevertheless, I do believe that there's more than a grain of truth in what the NY's journalists say - they really could have had a hard time adapting Nabokov's early writings to meet the requirements of the magazine. Though, the claim of his learning the language from the dictionary exclusively seems to be nothing but a catchy phrase said for the sake of its own, so typical for journalists, as there could be at least three more plausible reasons for the fact that his language sounded a bit "queer" or outdated to their ears.
First and obvious, indeed - that was the generation gap. The language of 1940th, when he fled to the USA from Europe in war, differed substantially from that of 20 years before, saying nothing of the English he had acquired as a toddler. Then, we should not ignore the variances found on the both "sides of the pond". And - the last but not the least - the language of "belle lettres" could not be similar to that of journalism.
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(Even if we keep in mind the highest standard of the New Yorker among other media and the fact that it has been a "venue" for a great number of literary debutes.)
Moreover, we should not forget that VN started his literary career with poems, and the way poets express themselves even in prose is not the same as other authors do.

And, again, my thanks to @Xander for sharing and spurring me to the SOОо delayed effort to write ANYthing at all ((

If anyone would like to comment on my language - be it grammar, syntax or word choice - please don't post your remarks here not to spoil Xander's thread, but put them here please: Заголовок: Well, well, well ...and mine, too!
Последний раз редактировалось Mary May 09 июл 2018, 16:35, всего редактировалось 2 раза.
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#9

Сообщение tourist »

Mary May,
interesting post.
Why underlined phrases,though ?
Your final-crossed out- sentence shouldn't be.)
You are one of the very few posters,who is confident enough to write here in English.
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#10

Сообщение Xander »

Mary May пишет: 09 июл 2018, 15:42 And, again, my thanks to @Xander for sharing
My plearure. )
Mary May пишет: 09 июл 2018, 15:42 The (sensational) claim that

Nabokov learned most of his English vocabulary by studying the Unabridged Oxford English Dictionary

which explains weird wording and archaicisms found in his early American writing could arise genuine interest here, on the EFL-related forum.
Although I am not fully convinced by the statement, I'm afraid.
Well, it didn't sound like a claim to me. ) Just some offhand remark, though not without basis.

Many of the staff members were renowned for their sharp sense of humor. And the bit about the dictionary was most likely an euphemism for 'his English requires some polishing', the latter being no surprise at all given that the writer, it I'm not mistaken, moved to the English speaking world in his late adolescence.

Also you can take my word that this trio knew English MUCH better than Mr Nabokov did (maybe later I'll try to get into more details as to why). He first and foremost was a genius of storytelling and novel-making, not of grammar or syntax or then contemporary English lexis.

The whole first piece was taken from
Kunkel, Thomas. Genius in Disguise: Harold Ross of the New Yorker
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#11

Сообщение Mary May »

Xander пишет: 09 июл 2018, 16:47 the bit about the dictionary was most likely an euphemism for 'his English requires some polishing', the latter being no surprise at all...
- to me, it seems more like "his English is too European/too British for us", no?
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#12

Сообщение Xander »

Mary May пишет: 09 июл 2018, 18:59 to me, it seems more like "his English is too European/too British for us", no?
Well, I'm not even remotely qualified to make any worthy comments on the matter, but I'll try.

It's not about his American years, but still ...

Quote.
While studying at Cambridge, the self-proclaimed “English child” was undeniably
Russian. Nabokov discovered that “all the Anglophilism of his family was no help: the
Englishness of his childhood was something belonging to the nursery”.
Unquote.

Boyd, Brian. Vladimir Nabokov: The Russian Years


Also

According to Sergei Il’in, Russian translator of Nabokov’s English novel, Pnin, there is a noticeable Russian influence in Nabokov’s English: “Nabokov brought a Russian syntax to his English prose as a matter of style, [particularly] in the way he creates a phrase”



Now I understand Ross' hilariously sarcastic (or sarcastically hilarious) 'I may cut my throat' reaction much better.
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#13

Сообщение Mary May »

Xander пишет: 09 июл 2018, 22:04 Nabokov discovered that “all the Anglophilism of his family was no help...”
He might be too tough on himself (?)
Too critical?
Besides, maybe he felt that way only during his first year (out of four)?
Russian syntax... as a matter of style...
- Well, perhaps that very feature made him special? recognisable?
There are too many "faceless" authors with tastelessly perfect language, wouldn't you agree?
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#14

Сообщение Xander »

Mary May пишет: 09 июл 2018, 22:36 He might be too tough on himself (?)
Too critical?
Who knows. Only those who'd seen his first drafts could give the most definite answer.
Mary May пишет: 09 июл 2018, 22:36 - Well, perhaps that very feature made him special? recognisable?
Can't say. I have read nothing of Nabokov in English. )) Pale Fire & Speak, Memory are on my to-read list. Both have near-the-top goodreads ratings, which makes them well worth giving a read. Or two.

I remember trying to read Joseph Conrad, another famous Eastern European émigré turned British, and giving it up after half a dozen pages. To my personal taste his British English was characteristically un-British, spiced with some polylinguistic qualities I couldn't quite put my finger on. Does it make him special? Yes, indubitably. Recognizable? Sure. )
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#15

Сообщение Mary May »

Conrad is appreciated for his style, they say...
Not my cup of tea, though.

Speaking of immigrants, the one who I really like reading in English is Japan-born Kazuo Ishiguro.
Here is his Nobel lecture (haven't listened to it myself yet):

https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes ... cture.html

(7 December 2017 at the Swedish Academy in Stockholm)
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#16

Сообщение Xander »

Mary May пишет: 09 июл 2018, 23:15 the one who I really like reading in English is Japan-born Kazuo Ishiguro
Read his Remains of the Day. Narrated from the point of view of a top notch butler the novel had an ostensibly aristocratic air and tone. I haven't figured yet whether it was Ishiguro talking on paper or just the character with his elaborate upperclass turns of speech.

The one ESL writer I was most impressed with is Khaled Hosseini. The language - even according to his own confession - is pretty simple (I would highly recommend anything from under his quill to people with B2 and higher), but the storyline and emotional impact are quite strong, descriptions are evocative, and ethos is well-established.
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#17

Сообщение Mary May »

Which one (or more than one) would you recommend to start with?
https://www.google.ru/search?newwindow= ... 66&bih=635
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#18

Сообщение Xander »

Entry №3
Lost In the Ghetto (written in the year 2000).
Hidden dangers of learning a foreign language
/ to provide a fuller picture, I am tempted to copy-past the whole chapter, but that would be ... well ... too much /
the context: London school(s) for lower class children/teens


... Still, children arise in the unlikeliest places with ambitions very different from their peers, and fortunately not all teachers believe that no child can escape the slums unless all do. One of my patients, for example, early conceived a passion for French culture and literature (she never arrives in the hospital without a volume of Hugo, Balzac, or Baudelaire, which is a little like seeing a polar bear in the jungle). She decided at an early age that she would study French at university and was fortunate, considering the school she attended, to find a teacher who did not actively discourage her. But the cost to her in ordinary social relations with her peers was incalculable: she had to sit apart from them in the classroom and create her own enclosed little world in the midst of constant disorder and noise; she was mocked, teased, threatened, and humiliated; she was jeered at when standing at the bus stop to go home; she was deprived of friends and sexually assaulted by boys who despised, and perhaps secretly feared, her evident devotion to books; excrement was put through her letterbox at home (a common expression of social disapproval in our brave New Britain). As for her parents – of whom she was fortunate enough to have two – they did not understand her. Why could she not be like everyone else – and leave them in peace? It wasn’t even as if a taste for French literature led automatically to highly paid employment.

She went to university and was happy for three years. For the first time in her life she met people whose mental world extended beyond their own very restricted experience. Her performance at university was creditable, though not brilliant, for by her own admission she lacked originality. She had always wanted to teach, thinking there was no nobler calling than to awaken the minds of the young to the cultural riches of which they would otherwise remain unaware; but on graduation, lacking savings, she returned to her parents for the sake of economy.

She found a job teaching French nearby, in the kind of school in which she herself had been educated. She was back in a world in which knowledge was no better than ignorance, and correction, whether
of spelling or of conduct, was by definition a personal insult, an outrage to the ego. Who was she – who was any adult, in fact – to tell children what they should learn or do (a sensible enough question, impossible to answer, if you believe in the equal worth of all human activity)? Once more she found herself mocked, teased, and humiliated, and was powerless to prevent it. Eventually one of her pupils – if that is quite the word to describe the youth in question – tried to rape her, and she brought her career as a teacher to a premature end. Now she would consider any paid employment that would take her away from the area in which she was born, or any area like it: that is to say, at least a third of Great Britain. Until her escape, however, she remains trapped in her parents’ home, with no one to talk to about those things that interest her, either inside the house or out. Perhaps, she mused, it would have been better had she surrendered to the majority while she was still at school: for her heroic struggle had brought her little but three years’ respite from misery.

Hers is not an isolated case by any means. ...

Dalrymple, Theodore. Life at the Bottom: The Worldview That Makes the Underclass
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#19

Сообщение Xander »

Mary May пишет: 10 июл 2018, 13:53 Which one (or more than one) would you recommend to start with?
Well, he has just three novels published. I read only one, A Thousand Splendid Suns,
which happened to have the highest rating among three
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/5 ... d_Hosseini
The books are in no way connected, so the order in which you read them seems to be unimportant. But you can go for the top one, as I did. )
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#20

Сообщение Xander »

Entry №4
The Muses Are Heard / Porgy and Bess (famous American musical) troupe in Leningrad, 1955

A Russian, his name was Josef (“Call me Joe”) Adamov, and he was in Leningrad to tape-record interviews with the Porgy and Bess cast for Radio Moscow, the station that beams broadcasts to countries outside the Soviet orbit. Adamov’s talents are devoted to programs intended for American, or English-speaking, consumption. The programs consist of news reports, music, and soap operas sudsy with propaganda. Listening to one of these plays is a startling experience, not for the content, which is crude, but for the acting, which isn’t. The voices pretending to be “average” Americans seem precisely that: one has absolute belief in the man who says he’s a Midwest farmer, a Texas cowhand, a Detroit factory worker. Even the voices of “children” sound familiar as the crunch of Wheaties, the crack of a baseball. Adamov bragged that none of these actors had ever left Russia, their accents were manufactured right in Moscow. Himself a frequent actor in the plays, Adamov has so perfected a certain American accent that he fooled a native of the region, Lyons, who said, “Gee, I’m dumfounded, I keep wondering what’s he doing so far from Lindy’s.” Adamov indeed seems to belong on the corner of Broadway and Fifty-first, a copy of Variety jammed under his arm. Although his slang needs dusting off, it is delivered with a bizarrely fluent side-of-the-mouth technique. “Me, I’m no museum-type guy,” he said, as we neared the Hermitage. “But if you go in for all that creepy stuff, they tell me this joint’s okay, really loaded.” Swart, moon-faced, a man in his middle thirties with a jumpy, giggling, coffee-nerves animation, his shifty eyes grow shiftier when, under duress, he admits that his English was learned in New York, where he lived from the ages of eight to twelve with an émigré grandfather. He prefers to skate over this American episode. “I was just a kid,” he says, as though he were saying, “I didn’t know any better.”

Capote, Truman. Portraits and Observations
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#21

Сообщение Xander »

Presently reading The American Language by Mencken, H.L.. I am somewhere in the beginning, but there are already so many quotable lines & quotes, one is more hilarious and revealing than the other. Like for intance in the chapter I'm on now, the British (who are famous for their wit) of all walks of life couldn't help ridiculing American language, both formal & informal, scholarly and slangy, leaving no chance even to the most prominent literary figures of the time. Had they read Thomas Pynchon or Truman Capote or David Foster Wallace, all - giants of the much later epochs, they most definitely would've changed their consistently sarcastic tune and talking-down disposition, but in the XIX and the beginning of the XX century there was no time machines at their disposal. Anyway, from today's very wide and comprehensive linguistic perspective all these attitudes not just ring a bell bringing to my mind comments often seen on this very forum and its predeccesor, but also provide a lot of insight and food for thought for folks who are keen on all things language. English language in particular.
I'll just share a couple of pieces by the most eminent wordsmiths, namely Charles Dickens & Virgina Woolf. In case some of you find this particular subject rather interesting and don't have much free time on your hands to read this monster of a book from cover to cover, I might open one more thread one day to share dozens of these gems, journaled and published traces of divorce between 'true' English and its over-the-pond freedom-loving ever-evolving willfully capricious spouse. Accidental runaway.
Here it goes.



Marryat, who toured the United States ten years after Hall, was chiefly impressed by the American verb to fix, which he described as "universal" and as meaning "to do anything." It also got attention from other English travelers, including Godfrey Thomas Vigne, whose "Six Months in America" was printed in 1832, and Charles Dickens, who came in 1842. Vigne said that it had "perhaps as many significations as any word in the Chinese language," and proceeded to list some of them — "to be done, made, mixed, mended, bespoken, hired, ordered, arranged, procured, finished, lent or given." Dickens thus dealt with it in one of his letters home to his family:
I asked Mr. Q. on board a steamboat if breakfast be nearly ready, and he tells me yes, he should think so, for when he was last below the steward was fixing the tables — in other words, laying the cloth. When we have been writing and I beg him … to collect our papers, he answers that he’ll fix ’em presently. So when a man’s dressing he’s fixing himself, and when you put yourself under a doctor he fixes you in no time. T’other night, before we came on board[…]"
"In another letter, written on an Ohio river steamboat on April 15, 1842, Dickens reported that "out of Boston and New York" a nasal drawl was universal, that the prevailing grammar was "more than doubtful," that the "oddest vulgarisms" were "received idioms," and that "all the women who have been bred in slave States speak more or less like Negroes." His observations on American speech habits in his "American Notes" (1842) were so derisory that they drew the following from Emerson:
No such conversations ever occur in this country in real life, as he relates. He has picked up and noted with eagerness each odd local phrase that he met with, and when he had a story to relate, has joined them together, so that the result is the broadest caricature."



[angle is changing here (my comment)]
"The Americans," said Mrs. Woolf in the Saturday Review of Literature on August 1, 1925, "are doing what the Elizabethans did — they are coining new words. They are instinctively making the language adapt itself to their needs." She continued:
In England, save for the impetus given by the war, the word-coining power has lapsed; our writers vary the metres of their poetry, remodel the rhythms of prose, but one may search English fiction in vain for a single new word. It is significant that when we want to freshen our speech, we borrow from American — poppycock, rambunctious, flip-flop, booster, good mixer. All the expressive, ugly, vigorous slang which creeps into use among us, first in talk, later in writing, comes from across the Atlantic."
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#22

Сообщение Xander »

Entry #6 / A Voice from a Cloud (Capote's reflections on his own life). Except for the New Yorker passage, the whole of the first sentence almost perfectly applies to my own education.


The reading I did on my own was of greater importance than my official education, which was a waste and ended when I was seventeen, the age at which I applied for and received a job at The New Yorker magazine. Not a very grand job, for all it really involved was sorting cartoons and clipping newspapers. Still, I was fortunate to have it, especially since I was determined never to set a studious foot inside a college classroom. I felt that either one was or wasn’t a writer, and no combination of professors could influence the outcome. I still think I was correct, at least in my own case; however, I now realize that most young writers have more to gain than not by attending college, if only because their teachers and classroom comrades provide a captive audience for their work; nothing is lonelier than to be an aspiring artist without some semblance of a sounding board.
...

... Usually when a story comes to me, it arrives, or seems to, in toto: a long sustained streak of lightning that darkens the tangible, so-called real world, and leaves illuminated only this suddenly seen pseudo-imaginary landscape, a terrain alive with figures, voices, rooms, atmospheres, weather. And all of it, at birth, is like an angry, wrathful tiger cub; one must soothe and tame it. Which, of course, is an artist’s principal task: to tame and shape the raw creative vision
.

Capote, Truman. Portraits and Observations
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#23

Сообщение Mary May »

Xander,
Would you mind if I suggested some of the extracts you posted here for translation practice on the "Перевод" subsection?

Not only are the pieces interesting content-wise; they are also self-contained but, at the same time,
being a part of a wider cultural context, they can be quite easily provided with info to clarify any ambiguity or misunderstanding, should they occur while translating. And - the icing on the cake - they are quite short and, therefore, manageable as an exercise.
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#24

Сообщение Xander »

Mary May пишет: 22 июл 2018, 00:12 Xander,
Would you mind if I suggested some of the extracts you posted here for translation practice on the "Перевод" subsection?
Why yes!
Knock yourself out.
Mary May
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#25

Сообщение Mary May »

Thank you so much;
now, I have to decide which to take as a starter.
Tough choice - I'm torn between two options at least.


Update: DONE
Заголовок: Translation, again
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